TOPIC: Transmute Ideas Please!

I don't play a paladin, but believe the +5 Holy Avenger is the best of the best weapon, but again, should be class specific with the abilities

Endgame wrote: Transmute chain for the Holy avenger - both levels add bonuses to Paladin Abilities

+3 Holy Avenger. Paladin Only
Damage wheel +1 over +2 Holy Avenger
Slay Evil Outsider on *
Lay on Hands heals 2 per box

+5 Holy Avenger
Damage wheel +2 over +3 Holy Avenger
Slay Evil Outsider on *
Lay on Hands heals 2 per box
Guard works against Ranged and Magic

I like the idea of taking the class specific legendaries and improving one aspect of the class. Some classes really only have one aspect, so that's what you focus on. For those that have more than one, we have to choose. (Ranger, Druid)

As for the above, while I would love to have lay on hands doubled, we just got rid of the doubling effect of LoDS. If we go from 15 to 30 (or 60 with restore power!) that could be a huge step backward.

I agree I'd rather have a blanket +3 vs Evil (this is an Avenger after all!). I don't think we have to remove one to have the other though.

What about a smite evil ability at some level? Something similar to the Paladin Cavalier, but only against evil creatures? +5 to hit, +10 to damage on the next attack. Relic 1/game, Legendary 1/room? Too much?
If one tries to smite a creature that isn't evil, the Paladin takes

I don't know if we want to extend guard to "everything." Monsters have a tough enough time, and limiting design is not a great thing to do.

I would not be opposed to allowing a paladin to guard an additional character, though I also think we can do better than that.

Just to try to come at it a little differently. It seems like most versions of the holy avenger in the source material have a couple of core qualities, a damage bonus vs evil creatures, a holy aura, and an extension of the paladin's innate powers.

The damage bonus vs evil creatures seems self explanatory though maybe we could spice it up by making the sword deal holy damage rather then normal.

For the holy aura perhaps we could do something "Anyone who wishes may use the paladins saving throw bonus in place of theirs", since palis help others and we don't necessarily want to play off guard to much (though I'm ok if we do since its a core concept).

In terms of extending the paladins existing holy abilities what if we let remove disease apply to any status effect. So things like petrification, fear, charm, etc

Or we could do something totally off the wall and say something like healing bonuses apply to each point of a paladins lay on hands (effectively giving them a viable healers build). Or something like Lay on hands check boxes can be converted to bonus holy damage on a successful hit vs evil monsters. Just spit balling.

Picc wrote: Just to try to come at it a little differently. It seems like most versions of the holy avenger in the source material have a couple of core qualities, a damage bonus vs evil creatures, a holy aura, and an extension of the paladin's innate powers.

The damage bonus vs evil creatures seems self explanatory though maybe we could spice it up by making the sword deal holy damage rather then normal.

For the holy aura perhaps we could do something "Anyone who wishes may use the paladins saving throw bonus in place of theirs", since palis help others and we don't necessarily want to play off guard to much (though I'm ok if we do since its a core concept).

In terms of extending the paladins existing holy abilities what if we let remove disease apply to any status effect. So things like petrification, fear, charm, etc

Or we could do something totally off the wall and say something like healing bonuses apply to each point of a paladins lay on hands (effectively giving them a viable healers build). Or something like Lay on hands check boxes can be converted to bonus holy damage on a successful hit vs evil monsters. Just spit balling.

Oh, that holy aura: players guarded by paladin my use paladins saves instead of their own.

Oh oh, and/or, paladin may declare guard after the monster announces its attack. For example: DM says 'monster attacks the druid' paladin responds 'i will guard druid with my super awesome sword of insta-guard.'

kurtreznor wrote:

Picc wrote: Just to try to come at it a little differently. It seems like most versions of the holy avenger in the source material have a couple of core qualities, a damage bonus vs evil creatures, a holy aura, and an extension of the paladin's innate powers.

The damage bonus vs evil creatures seems self explanatory though maybe we could spice it up by making the sword deal holy damage rather then normal.

For the holy aura perhaps we could do something "Anyone who wishes may use the paladins saving throw bonus in place of theirs", since palis help others and we don't necessarily want to play off guard to much (though I'm ok if we do since its a core concept).

In terms of extending the paladins existing holy abilities what if we let remove disease apply to any status effect. So things like petrification, fear, charm, etc

Or we could do something totally off the wall and say something like healing bonuses apply to each point of a paladins lay on hands (effectively giving them a viable healers build). Or something like Lay on hands check boxes can be converted to bonus holy damage on a successful hit vs evil monsters. Just spit balling.

Oh, that holy aura: players guarded by paladin my use paladins saves instead of their own.

Oh oh, and/or, paladin may declare guard after the monster announces its attack. For example: DM says 'monster attacks the druid' paladin responds 'i will guard druid with my super awesome sword of insta-guard.'

I really like the guard confers save idea, especially since version 1 of the +2 sword gave +2 Saves. It's easy to handle in the dungeon too - DM says paladin saves, and the guarded person knows they save too.

Maybe something like transmute grieves, maybe reprinting some of the older transmute for extra limited time, maybe a transmute all spellcaster anything, because wizard stuff is the only spellcaster that is very difficult crossplaying another class

Europa's +5 Enchanted Elemental Javelin/trident

Greater ring of focus/protection

Charming grieves: grants the effect of necklace of charms (the one that everyone is losing for a class specific relic/legendary).

Requires the necklace (reprint the necklace also please) and any rare grieves plus uncommon grieves.

I like it as a relic partly as the ur part isn’t the grieves and it frees up contention on necklaces. I don’t think it should have a legendary unless the first step actually was charm bracelets replacement, but those are much newer. A reprint of the neck could transmute into the effect of the bracelets, then one more for the legendary if that route was preferred.

This could be done with several items, the key would be to keep the shin slot required items generic and the specific UR something orderable. I’d also want it to mimic the effect of another token specifically so it adds only build diversity and gives options. The idea is not a legendary shin item that only the 1% of legendary creators (the 10%?) could even bother to make it, or to have it required to be competitive. My suggestion might actually be required, it might be too good, but I really like the idea and wanted to get it out there.

300pounder wrote: Greater ring of focus/protection

Print sure Jeff has no relic reprints in the past.

macXdmg wrote: Charming grieves: grants the effect of necklace of charms (the one that everyone is losing for a class specific relic/legendary).

Requires the necklace (reprint the necklace also please) and any rare grieves plus uncommon grieves.

I like it as a relic partly as the ur part isn’t the grieves and it frees up contention on necklaces. I don’t think it should have a legendary unless the first step actually was charm bracelets replacement, but those are much newer. A reprint of the neck could transmute into the effect of the bracelets, then one more for the legendary if that route was preferred.

This could be done with several items, the key would be to keep the shin slot required items generic and the specific UR something orderable. I’d also want it to mimic the effect of another token specifically so it adds only build diversity and gives options. The idea is not a legendary shin item that only the 1% of legendary creators (the 10%?) could even bother to make it, or to have it required to be competitive. My suggestion might actually be required, it might be too good, but I really like the idea and wanted to get it out there.

The only issue I see with it is the grives slot has been weak/box only stuff thus far (-2 fire/-2 dark). Effectively putting a charm expander in a slot with no competition is going to lock down the or at least change the nature of the slot.

Picc wrote: The only issue I see with it is the grives slot has been weak/box only stuff thus far (-2 fire/-2 dark). Effectively putting a charm expander in a slot with no competition is going to lock down the or at least change the nature of the slot.

In the relic and or legendary game space, yes. And a relic that duplicates a ur from another slot, as I said Charm Necklace might have been the wrong one, seems like a fair build diversity trade. The slot is new, and doesn’t have precedence above rare. UR seems unlikely specifically because a UR draw only token is either going to be unforgiving or too prevelant.

Relic space I believe could be reached if we wanted to talk about it. Hi, we’re talking about it.