TOPIC: Transmute Ideas Please!

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.

If you sell them on EBay you also get hit with about 15% in fees.

Yes, and I also ignored the cost of multiple TE tokens needed. But I’m not interested in constructing return on investment scenarios. But think about what it cost to make your CoA and buy your nuggets. I doubt your return will look attractive.

But one thing all these arguments ignore is that we arent approaching this as a business venture. We are players. I would be so bold as to say that EVERY one of us would be buying at least some event tickets, even if there were no treasure enhancers (maybe one ticket per dungeon). So, if we enjoy playing and there is an option to get more treasure, it makes sense that at least some of us would choose to do that if the cost is not prohibitive to us. Personally, i like to lower ongoing costs by spending the money up front (ie, buying things rather than taking on debt), so treasure enhancers fit this mentality in many ways.

BUT, once you have the treasure enhancers for your minimum desired runs (ie. What you would buy even without TE), now the effective cost of additional runs is lower. Since i enjoy playing TD, i play again. The lower the effective cost (due to more value from TE), the more times i can justify playing...until it reaches a point that ticket price isnt the limiting factor. For example, last year i went to origins alone, so i scheduled a couple non-TD events, planned for a couple hours to see the dealer hall, and the rest of my schedule was full of TD runs. This year will be with my wife, so i wont get to play as often.
Anway, the point is, all the treasure bonus has to do is reduce the effective cost low enough that the player is happy to pay to play again, even if there isnt profit in doing so.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.

If you sell them on EBay you also get hit with about 15% in fees.

Yes, and I also ignored the cost of multiple TE tokens needed. But I’m not interested in constructing return on investment scenarios. But think about what it cost to make your CoA and buy your nuggets. I doubt your return will look attractive.

Treasure Chips also aren't very liquid. Just because they may have a percieved value doesn't mean that you can instantly sell large quantities of them at that price. It would likely take significant time and energy, and if large quantities of them hit the market prices would likely drop.

Maybe true, but misses the point. By the time people realize they may not be as profitable as they wanted, the damage is done. Newbies got frozen out or, even worse, four newbies are abandoned by a farmer in room 1 who talked them into Nightmare for the completion tokens.

I’m less concerned about people making a profit, to be honest. It’s more about how their behavior would disrupt the game in pursuit of profit.

Remember all the drama surrounding treasure stamps and why they went away? That was just for one or three TCs. Now we’re talking 21, 23, only the gawds know how many in the next few years. And we all want TD to be around a long time. At least I do. And pissing off newbies is not the way to get there

Treasure Stamps actually impacted 9 treasure chips when the HoP is taken into account.

I agree with you about wanting the TD experience for new, and existing, players to be as positive as possible.

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.

If you sell them on EBay you also get hit with about 15% in fees.

Yes, and I also ignored the cost of multiple TE tokens needed. But I’m not interested in constructing return on investment scenarios. But think about what it cost to make your CoA and buy your nuggets. I doubt your return will look attractive.

But one thing all these arguments ignore is that we arent approaching this as a business venture. We are players. I would be so bold as to say that EVERY one of us would be buying at least some event tickets, even if there were no treasure enhancers (maybe one ticket per dungeon). So, if we enjoy playing and there is an option to get more treasure, it makes sense that at least some of us would choose to do that if the cost is not prohibitive to us. Personally, i like to lower ongoing costs by spending the money up front (ie, buying things rather than taking on debt), so treasure enhancers fit this mentality in many ways.

BUT, once you have the treasure enhancers for your minimum desired runs (ie. What you would buy even without TE), now the effective cost of additional runs is lower. Since i enjoy playing TD, i play again. The lower the effective cost (due to more value from TE), the more times i can justify playing...until it reaches a point that ticket price isnt the limiting factor. For example, last year i went to origins alone, so i scheduled a couple non-TD events, planned for a couple hours to see the dealer hall, and the rest of my schedule was full of TD runs. This year will be with my wife, so i wont get to play as often.
Anway, the point is, all the treasure bonus has to do is reduce the effective cost low enough that the player is happy to pay to play again, even if there isnt profit in doing so.

Good points

And as long as TD isn’t a sellout, that behavior is good for everyone.

It’s not bad until the demand so outstrips supply that we lock out new players, who are the future of the game. Even if we did cap loot, and vets reduced their token buys, new players are the ones who would step in and keep sales as high, or even higher as TD spreads to more cons.

The cheaper it is for vets to play, the more they’ll play. Make it essentially free, or even cheaper, and newbies can’t compete since they’re paying full price.

kurtreznor wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.

If you sell them on EBay you also get hit with about 15% in fees.

Yes, and I also ignored the cost of multiple TE tokens needed. But I’m not interested in constructing return on investment scenarios. But think about what it cost to make your CoA and buy your nuggets. I doubt your return will look attractive.

But one thing all these arguments ignore is that we arent approaching this as a business venture. We are players. I would be so bold as to say that EVERY one of us would be buying at least some event tickets, even if there were no treasure enhancers (maybe one ticket per dungeon). So, if we enjoy playing and there is an option to get more treasure, it makes sense that at least some of us would choose to do that if the cost is not prohibitive to us. Personally, i like to lower ongoing costs by spending the money up front (ie, buying things rather than taking on debt), so treasure enhancers fit this mentality in many ways.

BUT, once you have the treasure enhancers for your minimum desired runs (ie. What you would buy even without TE), now the effective cost of additional runs is lower. Since i enjoy playing TD, i play again. The lower the effective cost (due to more value from TE), the more times i can justify playing...until it reaches a point that ticket price isnt the limiting factor. For example, last year i went to origins alone, so i scheduled a couple non-TD events, planned for a couple hours to see the dealer hall, and the rest of my schedule was full of TD runs. This year will be with my wife, so i wont get to play as often.
Anway, the point is, all the treasure bonus has to do is reduce the effective cost low enough that the player is happy to pay to play again, even if there isnt profit in doing so.

Good points. That may be one reason (in addition to increasing token sales) that TD has continued to make new TE tokens.

Someone is going to yell at us for talking about TEs when we probably aren’t going to have any new ones until at least 2023

Brad Mortensen wrote: Someone is going to yell at us for talking about TEs when we probably aren’t going to have any new ones until at least 2023

It's bound to happen.

Can we take discussions of TE/farming or whatever to a different thread and focus just on ideas for 2020 transmutes please?

Ok, 2020 transmute suggestion, following example used in class specific transmutes. :D:D:D

2020 rare: Ioun Stone Copper Nugget. 1 extra treasure, only treasure enhancer.

2020 4 star transmute - Copper Amulet of Wealth. Uses Ioun Stone Copper Nugget. 2 extra treasure, may combine with Ioun Stone Treasure Enhancers.

When combined with the 2019 charm of treasure boosting, it yields 3 extra treasure - not as good as a Amulet of Treasure finding, but you can first start with boosting the Copper Amulet with the charm of treasure finding, and then buy nuggets and continue to boost your treasure until you're ready to move beyond silver / gold / platinum nuggets.

I think Relic should be class specific. The legendary as well of course.
The UR could be any class that makes sense.

kurtreznor wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Aothos wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For Ranger

Relic Amulet of the Sharpshooter - Neck - All
+4 to DEX, +2 to ranged damage

Legendary - Heartseeker - Neck - Ranger
+6 to DEX, +4 to ranged damage, May re-use 1 ammo token for entire combat, your ranged attacks have the True Flight ability, (ignores cover and wind penalties to hit), you get a surprise attack on party initiative 15-20 (a'la Charm of Quick Strike)

I really like where this is going, but lets reign it in a little bit and cut down on how wordy it is.

Relic - Amulet of the Sharpshooter - Neck - Ranger
+3 to DEX, +2 to favored damage

Legendary - Heartseeker - Neck - Ranger
+5 to DEX, +4 to favored damage; ranged attacks have True Flight
(ignores cover and wind penalties to hit)

I feel like at the relic level is were we should start class limitations for class specific legendary path items, and I think increasing favored damage will appeal to a wider audience, while playing off the new items that Jeff has been implementing that increase the variety of favored enemies one can have.

We could also replace the True Flight section with 'Ranger's ignore damage reduction against their favored enemies/ and can always crit on their favored enemies regardless of types'.
This change would be a throwback to the fact that Rangers intensely study their favored enemies and a Paragon Ranger would know ways around a favored enemie's strengths as well as exploiting their weaknesses.

Hmm - Stu-Pendous Pendant gives +3 STR and DEX at UR, and the Exalted Creeper Amulet gives +4 DEX at Exalted (which is I think supposed to be between Rare and UR).

A relic should be 1 step better than a UR, so I think the minimum for a ranged Relic would be +4 or 5 DEX and something quite good - e.g. worth 3 STR or more.

It certainly is wordy and we could pare down if it's too good - but that bridge has been crossed, both the legendary Bard and Druid tokens just tell you to go to tokendb to read up on their abilities.

I don't feel too strongly, but it would be nice if the relic could be usable by all when it made sense (it didn't really make sense for the last batch as they hinged so heavily on class abilities for the Bard and Rogue ones). This is purely a practical concern - tokens that can only be used by one class are often in much less demand, and less valuable. It would help these tokens to appreciate and be available if the relic ones were good for everyone, even if they were better for the target class. I don't feel too strongly about that though.

I agree that the favored damage bonus is very underwhelming if the item doesnt also let you choose a new favored enemy. Of course, ive always felt that choosing a favored enemy could cause frustration (big bonus if you know what is coming, but without fore-knowledge it likely does nothing). Maybe these items can add a few new favored enemies that we have faced in the past; the relic could add giants & trolls; the legendary could add giants, trolls, dragons, outsiders, and spiders.

As for the relic only allowing the one class; i think they should be special to that class, even the relic level. And i think my monk idea didnt actually stick to that since i was designing off a thematic idea...maybe i will try and go back to work a more monk-focus ability on those (maybe that idea can just be some other 'all' transmute).

I'd definitely be open to adding some standard, non-theme, enemies to the roster. And after reviewing some favored enemy items I can definitely see giving that damage a boost.

Maybe something like:

UR - Amulet of the Agile Shot - Neck - Any
+3 Dex, +3 Ranged Damage

Relic - Amulet of the Sharpshooter - Neck - Ranger
+5 DEX, +5 to favored damage; +fav enemies (Giants, Fea, and Constructs)

Legendary - Heartseeker - Neck - Ranger
+7 to DEX, +7 to favored damage; ignore damage reduction/ crit block of favored enemies,
+fave enemies (Giants, Fea, Constructs, Dragons, Evil Outsiders, and Aberrations)

Per the token DB, since relics became a thing, most years have featured 3 or 4. 2014 had 6, 2017 had 2.

Either way, 4 Class specific does leave a gap where people who want to make more than 4 are going to have some leftover goods.

As I thought about it more, combining 2 older URs (a la Synergy and Awareness) is really a 1/2 slot expansion. Not many were equipping awareness beforehand I dont believe, but many did equip synergy.

Their synergy items just got better was all that happened there, but I bet a LOT of CoAS got made.

If we think this is a good idea, slots I could see this happening in would be
Ioun Stone
Ring
Earcuff
Shirt

Not sure if we want to go down that road, but one idea would be to reprint earcuff of orbits, then combine it with something new for an Orbital earcuff of the phalanx, for example.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Per the token DB, since relics became a thing, most years have featured 3 or 4. 2014 had 6, 2017 had 2.

Either way, 4 Class specific does leave a gap where people who want to make more than 4 are going to have some leftover goods.

As I thought about it more, combining 2 older URs (a la Synergy and Awareness) is really a 1/2 slot expansion. Not many were equipping awareness beforehand I dont believe, but many did equip synergy.

Their synergy items just got better was all that happened there, but I bet a LOT of CoAS got made.

If we think this is a good idea, slots I could see this happening in would be
Ioun Stone
Ring
Earcuff
Shirt

Not sure if we want to go down that road, but one idea would be to reprint earcuff of orbits, then combine it with something new for an Orbital earcuff of the phalanx, for example.

Oof, I don't think we want to make Earcuff of orbits even better, even if it becomes a relic. Perhaps combine Phalanx with Vitality and Sonic Splendor? +AC, +HP, and + Spell damage? Of course, that would probably just replace Icecraig. Maybe Phalanx and something to do with Bardsong, which is a large theme in ear slots?