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TOPIC: Transmute Ideas Please!

Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #121

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


If you sell them on EBay you also get hit with about 15% in fees.
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #122

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macXdmg wrote: Lenses of leadership : your party members gain +1 in each stat, only one can be in any party.

Edit
Goggles of combined strike: +1 hit and damage for each other person in the party with the goggles. Affects melee, ranged, and spells.


Those goggles...

Right now I’m using Goggles of Instant Analysis. +2 melee to hit, 0 to damage. The party has 4 other players with Combined Strike. Now I’m +4 to hit and damage.

Or the whole party has them. (And that will happen). Now I’m +9 to hit and damage. I’m won’t be missing anything unless I slide off the board or onto a 1.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #123

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


Yes, for one ticket at GenCon.

But if you buy six tix and ghost five (current rules) and play at Origins for $20 cheaper.

Now it’s $26 x 6 / 2 = $70/hour. Still not getting rich, but it’s more than I make.

And that’s assuming the person doesn’t quit in room 1 and go collect their loot after 20 minutes. Now it’s more like $400/hr.

As long as loot exceeds the price of tickets, even if only by a dollar, there’s a problem. The point is that the more people are incentivized to play for profit, the fewer tickets are available for new players and others who just want to play for fun. There are only so many dials you can tweak to accommodate rising loot caps.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #124

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Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


If you sell them on EBay you also get hit with about 15% in fees.


Yes, and I also ignored the cost of multiple TE tokens needed. But I’m not interested in constructing return on investment scenarios. But think about what it cost to make your CoA and buy your nuggets. I doubt your return will look attractive.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
Last edit: by Harlax.
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #125

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain givien the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


While no one is getting rich, making it a profit shouldn't be possible at all. Ideally for TD, for maximum exposure at gen con, no one should be able to register for a second run of a dungeon until after there has been sufficient chance for general con attendees to register for TD runs. If people can make money and register for 10 runs each (or more), that is the exact opposite of what is in TD's best interest.
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #126

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


Yes, for one ticket at GenCon.

But if you buy six tix and ghost five (current rules) and play at Origins for $20 cheaper.

Now it’s $26 x 6 / 2 = $70/hour. Still not getting rich, but it’s more than I make.

And that’s assuming the person doesn’t quit in room 1 and go collect their loot after 20 minutes. Now it’s more like $400/hr.

As long as loot exceeds the price of tickets, even if only by a dollar, there’s a problem. The point is that the more people are incentivized to play for profit, the fewer tickets are available for new players and others who just want to play for fun. There are only so many dials you can tweak to accommodate rising loot caps.

Every play Diablo II? It's like the difference between playing the story line vs doing Diablo or Bhaal runs. In that context, TD almost has it backwards - the Dungeon should have the loot cap, Grind should let you stack as many TE as you want.

*Edit to say I'm trying to agree with you and expand on your point. Not sure that came across on a second reading.
Last edit: by Endgame.
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #127

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Aothos wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: For Ranger

Relic Amulet of the Sharpshooter - Neck - All
+4 to DEX, +2 to ranged damage

Legendary - Heartseeker - Neck - Ranger
+6 to DEX, +4 to ranged damage, May re-use 1 ammo token for entire combat, your ranged attacks have the True Flight ability, (ignores cover and wind penalties to hit), you get a surprise attack on party initiative 15-20 (a'la Charm of Quick Strike)


I really like where this is going, but lets reign it in a little bit and cut down on how wordy it is.

Relic - Amulet of the Sharpshooter - Neck - Ranger
+3 to DEX, +2 to favored damage

Legendary - Heartseeker - Neck - Ranger
+5 to DEX, +4 to favored damage; ranged attacks have True Flight
(ignores cover and wind penalties to hit)

I feel like at the relic level is were we should start class limitations for class specific legendary path items, and I think increasing favored damage will appeal to a wider audience, while playing off the new items that Jeff has been implementing that increase the variety of favored enemies one can have.

We could also replace the True Flight section with 'Ranger's ignore damage reduction against their favored enemies/ and can always crit on their favored enemies regardless of types'.
This change would be a throwback to the fact that Rangers intensely study their favored enemies and a Paragon Ranger would know ways around a favored enemie's strengths as well as exploiting their weaknesses.


Hmm - Stu-Pendous Pendant gives +3 STR and DEX at UR, and the Exalted Creeper Amulet gives +4 DEX at Exalted (which is I think supposed to be between Rare and UR).

A relic should be 1 step better than a UR, so I think the minimum for a ranged Relic would be +4 or 5 DEX and something quite good - e.g. worth 3 STR or more.

It certainly is wordy and we could pare down if it's too good - but that bridge has been crossed, both the legendary Bard and Druid tokens just tell you to go to tokendb to read up on their abilities.

I don't feel too strongly, but it would be nice if the relic could be usable by all when it made sense (it didn't really make sense for the last batch as they hinged so heavily on class abilities for the Bard and Rogue ones). This is purely a practical concern - tokens that can only be used by one class are often in much less demand, and less valuable. It would help these tokens to appreciate and be available if the relic ones were good for everyone, even if they were better for the target class. I don't feel too strongly about that though.


I agree that the favored damage bonus is very underwhelming if the item doesnt also let you choose a new favored enemy. Of course, ive always felt that choosing a favored enemy could cause frustration (big bonus if you know what is coming, but without fore-knowledge it likely does nothing). Maybe these items can add a few new favored enemies that we have faced in the past; the relic could add giants & trolls; the legendary could add giants, trolls, dragons, outsiders, and spiders.

As for the relic only allowing the one class; i think they should be special to that class, even the relic level. And i think my monk idea didnt actually stick to that since i was designing off a thematic idea...maybe i will try and go back to work a more monk-focus ability on those (maybe that idea can just be some other 'all' transmute).
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #128

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Endgame wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain givien the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


While no one is getting rich, making it a profit shouldn't be possible at all. Ideally for TD, for maximum exposure at gen con, no one should be able to register for a second run of a dungeon until after there has been sufficient chance for general con attendees to register for TD runs. If people can make money and register for 10 runs each (or more), that is the exact opposite of what is in TD's best interest.


My numbers are an ideal scenario. I ignored potential shipping costs and cost of acquiring the TE tokens and potential ebay fees. And assumed there was a large enough market for pulls at $4 per pull. If supply increased dramatically, price is very likely to drop.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #129

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Brad Mortensen wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


Yes, for one ticket at GenCon.

But if you buy six tix and ghost five (current rules) and play at Origins for $20 cheaper.

Now it’s $26 x 6 / 2 = $70/hour. Still not getting rich, but it’s more than I make.

And that’s assuming the person doesn’t quit in room 1 and go collect their loot after 20 minutes. Now it’s more like $400/hr.

As long as loot exceeds the price of tickets, even if only by a dollar, there’s a problem. The point is that the more people are incentivized to play for profit, the fewer tickets are available for new players and others who just want to play for fun. There are only so many dials you can tweak to accommodate rising loot caps.


If any substantial number of people do that, the price per pull would not stay at $4.

In any case, I agree there should be a loot cap. We can debate where it should be, but it is needed.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #130

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


If you sell them on EBay you also get hit with about 15% in fees.


Yes, and I also ignored the cost of multiple TE tokens needed. But I’m not interested in constructing return on investment scenarios. But think about what it cost to make your CoA and buy your nuggets. I doubt your return will look attractive.

Treasure Chips also aren't very liquid. Just because they may have a percieved value doesn't mean that you can instantly sell large quantities of them at that price. It would likely take significant time and energy, and if large quantities of them hit the market prices would likely drop.
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #131

Harlax wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


Yes, for one ticket at GenCon.

But if you buy six tix and ghost five (current rules) and play at Origins for $20 cheaper.

Now it’s $26 x 6 / 2 = $70/hour. Still not getting rich, but it’s more than I make.

And that’s assuming the person doesn’t quit in room 1 and go collect their loot after 20 minutes. Now it’s more like $400/hr.

As long as loot exceeds the price of tickets, even if only by a dollar, there’s a problem. The point is that the more people are incentivized to play for profit, the fewer tickets are available for new players and others who just want to play for fun. There are only so many dials you can tweak to accommodate rising loot caps.


If any substantial number of people do that, the price per pull would not stay at $4.

In any case, I agree there should be a loot cap. We can debate where it should be, but it is needed.


It can be debated whether a loot cap is needed. Currently the max chips is increasing one per year. If the ticket prices increase $4 per year, that pretty much evens out.

A loot cap would likely impact token sales. People at the cap wouldn't need to buy any further TE tokens if a cap were in place.

I'm totally OK if True Dungeon does decide on a cap, or decides to stop doing new TE tokens entirely. I just think it's not as clear cut of a decision as often presented.
Last edit: by Mike Steele.
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Transmute Ideas Please! 7 months 3 weeks ago #132

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Harlax wrote: Let’s look at point 2. For the sake of argument let’s say GenCon run price stays at $78. And you are getting the max 21 pulls. (Uncertain giving the new ghosting rules)

You also get a token pack worth $8. That drops the $78 to $70. (I’m not factoring in completion tokens)

So $70/21. Or a value of about $3.33 per pull

If you can sell for $4. $4*21. $84 per run. $6 potential profit (ignoring any potential shipping costs). $14 if you can also sell the 10 pack. For 2 hours of “work”

No one is getting rich at those numbers.


If you sell them on EBay you also get hit with about 15% in fees.


Yes, and I also ignored the cost of multiple TE tokens needed. But I’m not interested in constructing return on investment scenarios. But think about what it cost to make your CoA and buy your nuggets. I doubt your return will look attractive.

Treasure Chips also aren't very liquid. Just because they may have a percieved value doesn't mean that you can instantly sell large quantities of them at that price. It would likely take significant time and energy, and if large quantities of them hit the market prices would likely drop.


Maybe true, but misses the point. By the time people realize they may not be as profitable as they wanted, the damage is done. Newbies got frozen out or, even worse, four newbies are abandoned by a farmer in room 1 who talked them into Nightmare for the completion tokens.

I’m less concerned about people making a profit, to be honest. It’s more about how their behavior would disrupt the game in pursuit of profit.

Remember all the drama surrounding treasure stamps and why they went away? That was just for one or three TCs. Now we’re talking 21, 23, only the gawds know how many in the next few years. And we all want TD to be around a long time. At least I do. And pissing off newbies is not the way to get there
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.
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