TOPIC: Ultra Rare Token Ideas

Bob Chasan wrote:

Xavon wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote: How about a Dex-based counterpart to the Medallion of Valhalla? That is, +3 Dex and +4 Con instead of +3 Str and +4 Con? Not every class will have a relic in the neck slot, and not every player will be willing to spend/save for a relic. Might make an interesting set of choices among Valhalla, the Stu-pendous Pendant, and this proposed UR.

Actually, if Jeff doesn't change his mind or get talked out of it, every class will have a neck slot, class specific Relic/Legendary pair. The two this year are just the start of a four or five year plan.

Not everyone being willing or able to afford a Relic (or higher) is still a valid point.

BeLinda please correct me if I’m wrong but, the main point was that there will still be plenty of demand for non relic neck slot tokens so she is suggesting better alternatives for those unwilling or unable to get neck relics.

I did mean to make two points. One, as Druegar pointed out, that not every class will have a neck-based relic/legendary (i.e., bard and paladin), and the proposed UR might work for them. Two, that even for classes that do have a neck-based relic/legendary, not all players will be willing/able to upgrade to them, so a +3 Dex, +4 Con UR might be an interesting alternative to Valhalla or the Stu-pendous Pendant. It would also compete with the Exalted Creeper Amulet (+4 Dex).

BeLinda Mathie wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote:

Xavon wrote:

BeLinda Mathie wrote: How about a Dex-based counterpart to the Medallion of Valhalla? That is, +3 Dex and +4 Con instead of +3 Str and +4 Con? Not every class will have a relic in the neck slot, and not every player will be willing to spend/save for a relic. Might make an interesting set of choices among Valhalla, the Stu-pendous Pendant, and this proposed UR.

Actually, if Jeff doesn't change his mind or get talked out of it, every class will have a neck slot, class specific Relic/Legendary pair. The two this year are just the start of a four or five year plan.

Not everyone being willing or able to afford a Relic (or higher) is still a valid point.

BeLinda please correct me if I’m wrong but, the main point was that there will still be plenty of demand for non relic neck slot tokens so she is suggesting better alternatives for those unwilling or unable to get neck relics.

I did mean to make two points. One, as Druegar pointed out, that not every class will have a neck-based relic/legendary (i.e., bard and paladin), and the proposed UR might work for them. Two, that even for classes that do have a neck-based relic/legendary, not all players will be willing/able to upgrade to them, so a +3 Dex, +4 Con UR might be an interesting alternative to Valhalla or the Stu-pendous Pendant. It would also compete with the Exalted Creeper Amulet (+4 Dex).

I do think that the proposed UR would be popular among those who don't transmute to Relic, or those who do not find it until later. In particular, Wizards who don't MoMM might love it.

I also think that, assuming we start the Relic neck items in a different slot at UR (as we did for Druid and Rogue) we would be well served to have an actual neck slot item at UR. The proposed one is, to me, simply a good option for an alternative build.

I think an idea for a interesting item that could help a lot players and fix a lot of sets that have some hard to find pieces. An item that reduces the number of pieces needed for set bonuses. If anyone plays diablo 3 think ring of royal grandeur. It could either work for all sets or just reduce the requirements for one set. Not sure on the slot for this.

Tome of Power - May cast 1st level spell (or lower) once per room as a scroll (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Ranger, Wizard)

Basically, reprint an aspect of the +2 Staff of Power, but add some flexibility (0th or 1st level spell), open it up to more classes (not just Wizards), and maybe make the decision a little tougher once the tome slot becomes a slot.

Fiddy wrote: Tome of Power - May cast 1st level spell (or lower) once per room as a scroll (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Ranger, Wizard)

Basically, reprint an aspect of the +2 Staff of Power, but add some flexibility (0th or 1st level spell), open it up to more classes (not just Wizards), and maybe make the decision a little tougher once the tome slot becomes a slot.

Too good based on existing healing spells I'm afraid.

For Cleric, Druid, and 5th level Ranger this amounts to 40 points of healing over the course of the dungeon (and it might be better, that's just what you get with Cure Minor).

Also, I would invite all spellcasters to join me in firmly rejecting the continued creation of "as a scroll" granting tokens at UR. Tokens that turn off 5+ other tokens in your build to generate their effect are neither fun nor good design for a collectible token game, in my opinion.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Tome of Power - May cast 1st level spell (or lower) once per room as a scroll (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Ranger, Wizard)

Basically, reprint an aspect of the +2 Staff of Power, but add some flexibility (0th or 1st level spell), open it up to more classes (not just Wizards), and maybe make the decision a little tougher once the tome slot becomes a slot.

Too good based on existing healing spells I'm afraid.

For Cleric, Druid, and 5th level Ranger this amounts to 40 points of healing over the course of the dungeon (and it might be better, that's just what you get with Cure Minor).

Also, I would invite all spellcasters to join me in firmly rejecting the continued creation of "as a scroll" granting tokens at UR. Tokens that turn off 5+ other tokens in your build to generate their effect are neither fun nor good design for a collectible token game, in my opinion.

Shoot, you're right, I was accidentally doing math just counting combat rooms. Which works for damage spells and most others, but not healing. But how did you get to 40 points of healing? Cure Light is 5 points, times 7 rooms, which would be 35 points total?

I disagree that "as a spell" is automatically bad, as it can provide flexibility. It is perfectly useful for spells that boost AC / saves, and it works great for Alertness, Bless, and Prayer. And you just pointed out that it can be too powerful for healing, It really only sucks for damage, or cases when you have to give up a "normal" casting for an "as a scroll" casting. This particular token doesn't make you "give up" anything unless you're choosing to equip it instead of Gregor's Tome or Carter's Tome.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Tome of Power - May cast 1st level spell (or lower) once per room as a scroll (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Ranger, Wizard)

Basically, reprint an aspect of the +2 Staff of Power, but add some flexibility (0th or 1st level spell), open it up to more classes (not just Wizards), and maybe make the decision a little tougher once the tome slot becomes a slot.

Too good based on existing healing spells I'm afraid.

For Cleric, Druid, and 5th level Ranger this amounts to 40 points of healing over the course of the dungeon (and it might be better, that's just what you get with Cure Minor).

Also, I would invite all spellcasters to join me in firmly rejecting the continued creation of "as a scroll" granting tokens at UR. Tokens that turn off 5+ other tokens in your build to generate their effect are neither fun nor good design for a collectible token game, in my opinion.

Firmly agree, I understand why it is done from a power level perspective but I dislike as a scroll from a fun perspective.

Fiddy wrote: Tome of Power - May cast 1st level spell (or lower) once per room as a scroll (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Ranger, Wizard)

Basically, reprint an aspect of the +2 Staff of Power, but add some flexibility (0th or 1st level spell), open it up to more classes (not just Wizards), and maybe make the decision a little tougher once the tome slot becomes a slot.

Even without healing, is 1/room too good when compared with Carter's tome, which is 1/game?

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Tome of Power - May cast 1st level spell (or lower) once per room as a scroll (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Ranger, Wizard)

Basically, reprint an aspect of the +2 Staff of Power, but add some flexibility (0th or 1st level spell), open it up to more classes (not just Wizards), and maybe make the decision a little tougher once the tome slot becomes a slot.

Even without healing, is 1/room too good when compared with Carter's tome, which is 1/game?

Keep in mind that other than healing spells, 1/room basically turns into 1/combat, or roughly 3/game. (We could even modify the token to be 1/combat instead, if that helps)

Is 3/game 0th or1st level spells likely to be more powerful than 1/game 2nd level? For the Ranger, I guess the answer would be "definitely", since they don't have 2nd level spells. For the others, I'm not certain that the answer is as clear. If you just look at the damage/heal spells, it looks like the 3 extra 1st level spells gets the win based on total amount. But I think an extra 2nd level Prayer giving everyone +2 to hit in a combat would be more impactful than 15 points of healing spread across three rooms.

Fiddy wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Fiddy wrote: Tome of Power - May cast 1st level spell (or lower) once per room as a scroll (Bard, Cleric, Druid, Elf Wizard, Ranger, Wizard)

Basically, reprint an aspect of the +2 Staff of Power, but add some flexibility (0th or 1st level spell), open it up to more classes (not just Wizards), and maybe make the decision a little tougher once the tome slot becomes a slot.

Even without healing, is 1/room too good when compared with Carter's tome, which is 1/game?

Keep in mind that other than healing spells, 1/room basically turns into 1/combat, or roughly 3/game. (We could even modify the token to be 1/combat instead, if that helps)

Is 3/game 0th or1st level spells likely to be more powerful than 1/game 2nd level? For the Ranger, I guess the answer would be "definitely", since they don't have 2nd level spells. For the others, I'm not certain that the answer is as clear. If you just look at the damage/heal spells, it looks like the 3 extra 1st level spells gets the win based on total amount. But I think an extra 2nd level Prayer giving everyone +2 to hit in a combat would be more impactful than 15 points of healing spread across three rooms.

Speaking as a healer I'd probably pass on it as a tomb since there may move a slot limitation coming and I got a tomb of focus this year. That said it presents a valid choice which is good.

Fiddy wrote:
I disagree that "as a spell" is automatically bad, as it can provide flexibility. It is perfectly useful for spells that boost AC / saves, and it works great for Alertness, Bless, and Prayer. And you just pointed out that it can be too powerful for healing, It really only sucks for damage, or cases when you have to give up a "normal" casting for an "as a scroll" casting. This particular token doesn't make you "give up" anything unless you're choosing to equip it instead of Gregor's Tome or Carter's Tome.

I didn't say it's automatically bad, I said it's not fun and bad design in a game which centers around token collection.

The effects you are highlighting as useful can be characterized as:

Widget of Spellslinging: Cast level 1 or less non-healing, non-damage spell 1/room.

No "as a scroll" required.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Fiddy wrote:
I disagree that "as a spell" is automatically bad, as it can provide flexibility. It is perfectly useful for spells that boost AC / saves, and it works great for Alertness, Bless, and Prayer. And you just pointed out that it can be too powerful for healing, It really only sucks for damage, or cases when you have to give up a "normal" casting for an "as a scroll" casting. This particular token doesn't make you "give up" anything unless you're choosing to equip it instead of Gregor's Tome or Carter's Tome.

I didn't say it's automatically bad, I said it's not fun and bad design in a game which centers around token collection.

The effects you are highlighting as useful can be characterized as:

Widget of Spellslinging: Cast level 1 or less non-healing, non-damage spell 1/room.

No "as a scroll" required.

Sure, the ability to cast the extra damage spells without bonus doesn't mean much to players that have built up a huge Focus bonus. But what about those that are just starting token collecting? 3 extra first level spells without bonuses gives you 24 extra damage (assuming magic missiles). That is equal to how much of a Focus bonus? +2? +3? And even once you cross that amount of Focus, these "as a spell" ones are still free extra spells. They don't take anything away from you other than an action. They don't make your Focus bonus useless on all your other spells. What if they were for free as a free action?