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TOPIC: Uncommon Token Suggestions

Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #49

Fiddy wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Potion Knowledge Thirst - Potion - All
You may cast two scrolls as a standard action
(You must been eligible to able to cast the scrolls in question)

Potion Multishot - Potion - All
You may use two ammo tokens per round


So you use your standard action to drink Knowledge Thirst and then the next round you can cast 2 scrolls as your standard action??? Why drink the potion? I guess if you drank the potion as a free action from some token that allowed you then by the wording on the token it would allow you to cast 2 scrolls as your standard the same round. Though all double scroll action generally requires the free action for the second scroll.

Similar issue with the Multi shot. You are generally using your standard action to drink. The next round you would be able to attack and use 2. Not really different that attacking twice and using an ammo each time. If you used a free action to drink the potion it would be better, but again that would require another token.


What if the Knowledge thirst said "You may immediately use 2 scrolls you are eligible to use"?

If a player wielding a Stu's stein wants to spend 5 scrolls in one round, I say let them go for it.

Multi shot allows it for the entire room at least.


I believe all potions in TD, with the exception of cure and some status removal potions, convey their effect for the entire room.

I don't think you should be able to stack the knowledge thirst one, the full rules-ey description in TDb would be like:

Until the end of this room, your character may perform the following as a standard action: read two scrolls.
You may choose to cast two different scrolls, or the same-named scroll twice.

Thus no matter how many you drink, it doesn't change anything beyond the first, as all they are doing is giving you a new ability for the remainder of the room. Think of it like Potion Leaping Attack - drinking more doesn't let you jump higher - it just conveys a special ability for the room.


Okay that makes more sense. Then I like the token even less at that rarity. So for the cost of an uncommon consumable you get a power that is more powerful than a UR. Lenses of Sage Speed to read 2 scrolls costs both the standard and free action. Granted with LoSS you could read 3 scrolls a round.


If it worked like LoSS, Uncommon would probably make sense. But I agree with Jedi that it is currently more powerful than LoSS. So I'd say bump it to Rare or change the wording.


Potion bulls strength, an uncommon consumable, has the same effect as Mithras Gauntlets, a BIS UR that some people feel is overpowered even now.

Potion Cats Grace conveys the same effect as an exalted neck item.

Potion Ironclad conveys similar benefits to UR bracers.


TD design allows for uncommon consumable potion that conveys similar effects to a slotted UR.

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Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #50

Fiddy wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Potion Knowledge Thirst - Potion - All
You may cast two scrolls as a standard action
(You must been eligible to able to cast the scrolls in question)

Potion Multishot - Potion - All
You may use two ammo tokens per round


So you use your standard action to drink Knowledge Thirst and then the next round you can cast 2 scrolls as your standard action??? Why drink the potion? I guess if you drank the potion as a free action from some token that allowed you then by the wording on the token it would allow you to cast 2 scrolls as your standard the same round. Though all double scroll action generally requires the free action for the second scroll.

Similar issue with the Multi shot. You are generally using your standard action to drink. The next round you would be able to attack and use 2. Not really different that attacking twice and using an ammo each time. If you used a free action to drink the potion it would be better, but again that would require another token.


What if the Knowledge thirst said "You may immediately use 2 scrolls you are eligible to use"?

If a player wielding a Stu's stein wants to spend 5 scrolls in one round, I say let them go for it.

Multi shot allows it for the entire room at least.


I believe all potions in TD, with the exception of cure and some status removal potions, convey their effect for the entire room.

I don't think you should be able to stack the knowledge thirst one, the full rules-ey description in TDb would be like:

Until the end of this room, your character may perform the following as a standard action: read two scrolls.
You may choose to cast two different scrolls, or the same-named scroll twice.

Thus no matter how many you drink, it doesn't change anything beyond the first, as all they are doing is giving you a new ability for the remainder of the room. Think of it like Potion Leaping Attack - drinking more doesn't let you jump higher - it just conveys a special ability for the room.


Okay that makes more sense. Then I like the token even less at that rarity. So for the cost of an uncommon consumable you get a power that is more powerful than a UR. Lenses of Sage Speed to read 2 scrolls costs both the standard and free action. Granted with LoSS you could read 3 scrolls a round.


If it worked like LoSS, Uncommon would probably make sense. But I agree with Jedi that it is currently more powerful than LoSS. So I'd say bump it to Rare or change the wording.


Trying to build consensus, how about:

Potion Knowledge Thirst - Potion - All
Upon drinking, you may read a scroll as an instantaneous action. Until end of room you may cast scrolls as a free action.

?

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Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #51

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Matthew Hayward wrote: Potion bulls strength, an uncommon consumable, has the same effect as Mithras Gauntlets, a BIS UR that some people feel is overpowered even now.

Potion Cats Grace conveys the same effect as an exalted neck item.

Potion Ironclad conveys similar benefits to UR bracers.


TD design allows for uncommon consumable potion that conveys similar effects to a slotted UR.

Those are stats. Do you have an example of a effect granted by a UR that is by an uncommon? Not say you are wrong just feels wrong to use an uncommon to achieve something better than a UR grants.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #52

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Potion bulls strength, an uncommon consumable, has the same effect as Mithras Gauntlets, a BIS UR that some people feel is overpowered even now.

Potion Cats Grace conveys the same effect as an exalted neck item.

Potion Ironclad conveys similar benefits to UR bracers.


TD design allows for uncommon consumable potion that conveys similar effects to a slotted UR.

Those are stats. Do you have an example of a effect granted by a UR that is by an uncommon? Not say you are wrong just feels wrong to use an uncommon to achieve something better than a UR grants.


Potion leaping attack and Gnomis Fizzy Lifting pack comes to mind.

The Coronet if the Archdruid and polymorph potions (potions don’t even require spell sacrifice!)

Potion death door and ash’s death pouch / drudgers death die.

Keep in mind, this token has a ton of prerequisites: to get any benefit you must expend 3 consumables and have 2 scrolls. Powering up the effect consumes one of the few actions you are going to get in combat - LoSS don’t make you burn an action to clean them off before you use them.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #53

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Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Potion bulls strength, an uncommon consumable, has the same effect as Mithras Gauntlets, a BIS UR that some people feel is overpowered even now.

Potion Cats Grace conveys the same effect as an exalted neck item.

Potion Ironclad conveys similar benefits to UR bracers.


TD design allows for uncommon consumable potion that conveys similar effects to a slotted UR.

Those are stats. Do you have an example of a effect granted by a UR that is by an uncommon? Not say you are wrong just feels wrong to use an uncommon to achieve something better than a UR grants.


Potion leaping attack and Gnomis Fizzy Lifting pack comes to mind.

Keep in mind, this token has a ton of prerequisites: to get any benefit you must expend 3 consumables and have 2 scrolls. Powering up the effect consumes one of the few actions you are going to get in combat - LoSS don’t make you burn an action to clean them off before you use them.

Potion of Leaping is rare and is better than a really bad UR. How does the token have tons of prerequisites? You consume only 1 more consumable than you would vs LoSS.
You either discover a star or you don't. You arrogant punk.

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Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #54

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Potion bulls strength, an uncommon consumable, has the same effect as Mithras Gauntlets, a BIS UR that some people feel is overpowered even now.

Potion Cats Grace conveys the same effect as an exalted neck item.

Potion Ironclad conveys similar benefits to UR bracers.


TD design allows for uncommon consumable potion that conveys similar effects to a slotted UR.

Those are stats. Do you have an example of a effect granted by a UR that is by an uncommon? Not say you are wrong just feels wrong to use an uncommon to achieve something better than a UR grants.


Potion leaping attack and Gnomis Fizzy Lifting pack comes to mind.

Keep in mind, this token has a ton of prerequisites: to get any benefit you must expend 3 consumables and have 2 scrolls. Powering up the effect consumes one of the few actions you are going to get in combat - LoSS don’t make you burn an action to clean them off before you use them.

Potion of Leaping is rare and is better than a really bad UR. How does the token have tons of prerequisites? You consume only 1 more consumable than you would vs LoSS.


To benefit you must consume 1 more consumable AND consume an additional action.

The additional action is important when you get, what, 12 standard and 12 free actions all dungeon?

Also - looks like you responded while I was editing, there are more examples like Coronet of the Archdruid / Polymorph potions, Life restoring URs and Potion Deaths Door.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #55

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Potion bulls strength, an uncommon consumable, has the same effect as Mithras Gauntlets, a BIS UR that some people feel is overpowered even now.

Potion Cats Grace conveys the same effect as an exalted neck item.

Potion Ironclad conveys similar benefits to UR bracers.


TD design allows for uncommon consumable potion that conveys similar effects to a slotted UR.

Those are stats. Do you have an example of a effect granted by a UR that is by an uncommon? Not say you are wrong just feels wrong to use an uncommon to achieve something better than a UR grants.


Potion leaping attack and Gnomis Fizzy Lifting pack comes to mind.

Keep in mind, this token has a ton of prerequisites: to get any benefit you must expend 3 consumables and have 2 scrolls. Powering up the effect consumes one of the few actions you are going to get in combat - LoSS don’t make you burn an action to clean them off before you use them.

Potion of Leaping is rare and is better than a really bad UR. How does the token have tons of prerequisites? You consume only 1 more consumable than you would vs LoSS.


To benefit you must consume 1 more consumable AND consume an additional action.

The additional action is important when you get, what, 12 standard and 12 free actions all dungeon?

Also - looks like you responded while I was editing, there are more examples like Coronet of the Archdruid / Polymorph potions, Life restoring URs and Potion Deaths Door.


Those examples are primarily Rares rather than Uncommons. And I doubt the Uncommon Polymorphs are considered better than the Coronet by many.

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Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #56

Fiddy wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Potion bulls strength, an uncommon consumable, has the same effect as Mithras Gauntlets, a BIS UR that some people feel is overpowered even now.

Potion Cats Grace conveys the same effect as an exalted neck item.

Potion Ironclad conveys similar benefits to UR bracers.


TD design allows for uncommon consumable potion that conveys similar effects to a slotted UR.

Those are stats. Do you have an example of a effect granted by a UR that is by an uncommon? Not say you are wrong just feels wrong to use an uncommon to achieve something better than a UR grants.


Potion leaping attack and Gnomis Fizzy Lifting pack comes to mind.

Keep in mind, this token has a ton of prerequisites: to get any benefit you must expend 3 consumables and have 2 scrolls. Powering up the effect consumes one of the few actions you are going to get in combat - LoSS don’t make you burn an action to clean them off before you use them.

Potion of Leaping is rare and is better than a really bad UR. How does the token have tons of prerequisites? You consume only 1 more consumable than you would vs LoSS.


To benefit you must consume 1 more consumable AND consume an additional action.

The additional action is important when you get, what, 12 standard and 12 free actions all dungeon?

Also - looks like you responded while I was editing, there are more examples like Coronet of the Archdruid / Polymorph potions, Life restoring URs and Potion Deaths Door.


Those examples are primarily Rares rather than Uncommons. And I doubt the Uncommon Polymorphs are considered better than the Coronet by many.


I agree with your power level assessments but I don’t think it has anything to do with the appropriateness of the proposed token.

We have a +4 STR potion at uncommon that has been reprinted multiple times.

Jedi asked about abilitie granting potions, and I took it as academic, not as a point to undermine the logic that if Bulls Strength is OK then this is too.

Stat granting tokens are generally more desirable than ability granting tokens.

If we can have Mithras gauntlets in a bottle at uncommon, that _stack_ with the Mithral gauntlets you are wearing on your hands, then we can have LoSS like effects in a bottle at uncommon too.

Perhaps also worth noting - bulls strength is strictly better than UR Girdle of Hill giant strength and Girdle of stone giant strength in what it conveys as well.

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #57

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Matthew Hayward wrote: Stat granting tokens are generally more desirable than ability granting tokens.

But are they more powerful? Rarity level suggest power level as much as desirability. The two can be the same but don't have to be.
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Last edit: by jedibcg.

Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #58

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Stat granting tokens are generally more desirable than ability granting tokens.

But are they more powerful? Rarity level suggest power level as much as desirability. The two can be the same but don't have to be.


I think (broadly) stat based tokens are more desirable precisely because they are more powerful. This is a generality - of course there could be exceptions either in players (who don't care about power so much), or tokens - such as Widseth's Mystical Lute which is very powerful but doesn't directly affect stats.

I was in a bit of a rush earlier and couldn't do a more comprehensive look than I would have liked at token comparisons.

I take it that what we're discussing is "can we find justification for an uncommon potion having a similar effect to a UR."

I think the answer is clearly yes, based on potion Bull's Strength.

If I understand you correctly, you find that uncompelling, because you think the answer to the question may depend on whether the token in question is an ability granting token, or just a stat granting token.

For myself, I don't see the need to draw that distinction between "ability" granting tokens and "stat" granting tokens. Mithral Gauntlets, Girdle of Stone Giant Strength, Ioun Stone Onyx Cube - all these are very powerful URs. Potion Bull's strength is OK. For me that's the end of the argument about whether UC potions can grant equal or superior effects to URs.

But - let's see what happens when we compare "ability" granting tokens.

Potion: Leaping Attack
UR: Gnomish Fizzy Lifting Attack
Analysis: A rare potion has an effect that is strictly better than a UR (attack flying all room instead of attack flying for 1 round).
Consumable power level implication: Rare consumables can grant strictly superior abilities to a similar UR

Potion: Potion Death's Door (and other identical effect potions)
UR: Druegar's Death Die
Analysis: For my money, PDD is considerably better than Druegar's Death Die. The only thing that keeps it from being strictly better is the 1/20 chance to come back with full HP. 1/2 the time DDD does nothing.
Consumable power level implication: Rare consumables can grant usually superior abilities to a similar UR


Potion: Firey Ice Lager
UR: Ring of Fire Elemental Command, Ring of Water Elemental Command
Analysis: Grants the DR benefits of 2 URs, but not the retribution damage of either.
Consumable power level implications: A single rare consumables can grant partial ability benefits of multiple URs
Side comment: For me, Firely Ice Lagger is 90% or more of the benefit of 2 URs - the RD damage is not significant in my opinion.

Potion: Any UC or Rare Polymorph Potion
UR: Coronet of the Arch-Druid

Analysis: Coronet's damage wheel has an average of 9.5, but costs 2 level 2 spells (ouch!). Polymorphing into a bear is not very interesting for RP purposes - potions provide much more interesting options (snake, shark, brownie, gremlin with potential auto-kill of construct). Best UC polymorph average damage is 5.75 and comes with -5 fire also. Best Rare polymorph average damage is 8.33. I'm going to say "8.33 damage and +2 level 2 spells" is better than 9.5 average damage.
Consumable power level implications: Rare consumables can be grant better (a subjective assessment) abilities than than UR items.



I'll leave you to draw your own conclusions from all that.

As I've said above I conclude UC potions can clearly grant an ability similar to a UR token, because they are allowed to grant stats similar to powerful UR tokens, and I don't see why there should be a distinction between "stat potions" and "ability potions."

(I'd be open to a compelling argument for why UC potions should be considered different for these purposes. Merely historical facts here don't interest me - if we went with merely historical facts then we'd still have "of focus" items granting +1 at UR and nothing at lower rarities for spell boosting).

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #59

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i feel you have adeptly demostrated a comsumable rare can be more powerful that a UR. I see no issues with this being a consumable rare more powerful than the UR. You have only demostrated an uncommon consumable to as good as a stat based UR, am I correct? So if it is better than the UR it should be rare, if is changed to be equal or lesser than the UR uncommon.
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Uncommon Token Suggestions 3 months 4 days ago #60

jedibcg wrote: i feel you have adeptly demostrated a comsumable rare can be more powerful that a UR. I see no issues with this being a consumable rare more powerful than the UR. You have only demostrated an uncommon consumable to as good as a stat based UR, am I correct? So if it is better than the UR it should be rare, if is changed to be equal or lesser than the UR uncommon.


This is where we disagree.

I think the existence of stat based uncommon potions with an effect equivalent to or better than chase URs is all you need to judge the appropriateness of the proposed fast-scroll casting potion.

I think your belief is more like: "Unless there has been printed a consumable UC potion that grants an ability equal to or better than a UR, then this token is too powerful to be printed at UC." (If I've got that wrong I'd be interested to hear what you are driving at).

For me that statement doesn't follow.

Here are a bunch of things I'd want to know before accepting as a fact that because there isn't yet a UC potion that grants a superior effect to a UR means one shouldn't be made.

To be clear - I'm not expecting you or anyone to answer these questions.

These are the questions that occur to me, and my answers lead me to the conclusion that whether a token is a "stat" token or an "ability" token has almost zero relevance to determining if it's effect is appropriate at a given rarity level.

Why must we separate ability tokens and stat tokens in this matter?
- If we care about this arbitrary distinction (does the token grant stats, or abilities), what other distinctions do we need to consider?
- Should we consider whether the potion's effect is mainly offensive or defensive, or what classes are most likely to benefit, or whether they were first printed before 2011, or any other arbitrary way you could divide up tokens into groups?

Even if we agree we must separate tokens in this manner when analyzing them, why should we believe in the first place that a UC potion can't grant a UR+ ability? We know rares can. Just because a Rare can do something, doesn't mean an uncommon can't.
There are only a handful of UC or rare potions that grant abilities comparable to a UR, there just aren't many points of comparison to be made.
Are we going to base the power level of all future uncommon ability granting tokens according to this standard?

Why is the UR rarity comparison the most important fact?
Not all URs are created equal - Medallion of Valhalla and Ring of Focus are not at the same power level because they are at the same rarity.
- If Lenses of Sage Speed had never been printed - what might you think about this token?
- If we printed a UR that made you immune to charm from evil creatures while outdoors would Potion Feybane suddenly be too good?

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Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.
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