TOPIC: Thanks and Thoughts on True Dungeon GENCON 2018

Matt wrote:

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I may be the in the minority, but I welcome a bit more difficulty in the Hardcore level. But then, my group is outfitted with a ton of URs and some Relics & Eldritch tokens. I definitely think it should be more difficult than "3 10 packs of tokens", as that is pretty close to the starting 10 pack on Normal mode.

I welcomed the increased difficulty level this year. Seems like the last couple of years there were a lot of posts on how the combats were getting too easy. I did end up using a Potion of Death's Door for another player this year. I don't recall having to do that since I started saving those things. For the most part, the groups I ran with took a lot of damage against the giants, but all managed to move on to the last two rooms.

I'm curious and worried about this, are we at the point that Normal isn't meant to be played sealed pack anymore? If we can believe that due to challenge where multiple rare build based players and those starting down the UR path are having trouble then this is a valid point.

I'm betting most of us didnt' start out buying UR's when we started playing and its seeming like that's the only way to do anything beyond normal now.

I think this year's hardcore was a bit of an anomaly. Let's see how GHC goes before we overcorrect.

I think the goal is
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with mostly reds, but challenging, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: playable with reds and URs, but challenging. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging, just challenging. Can we get a 6th level?

Matt wrote:

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I may be the in the minority, but I welcome a bit more difficulty in the Hardcore level. But then, my group is outfitted with a ton of URs and some Relics & Eldritch tokens. I definitely think it should be more difficult than "3 10 packs of tokens", as that is pretty close to the starting 10 pack on Normal mode.

I welcomed the increased difficulty level this year. Seems like the last couple of years there were a lot of posts on how the combats were getting too easy. I did end up using a Potion of Death's Door for another player this year. I don't recall having to do that since I started saving those things. For the most part, the groups I ran with took a lot of damage against the giants, but all managed to move on to the last two rooms.

I'm curious and worried about this, are we at the point that Normal isn't meant to be played sealed pack anymore? If we can believe that due to challenge where multiple rare build based players and those starting down the UR path are having trouble then this is a valid point.

I'm betting most of us didnt' start out buying UR's when we started playing and its seeming like that's the only way to do anything beyond normal now.

This is kind of where I'm at. The PUG I went through with would have been a TPK or near TPK if we hadn't helped out... (my opinion of course... but colored by every dungeon and grind I've run since 2007...) That would not have been the case with the clue that the NPC didn't give... ...for 3 runs on two separate days. On nightmare - we relished the challenge. It was awesome - and to echo some of the sentiments here I kind of liked the thrill that Nightmare actually provided a thrill and a bit of fear...

Again - just my opinion...

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matt wrote:

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I may be the in the minority, but I welcome a bit more difficulty in the Hardcore level. But then, my group is outfitted with a ton of URs and some Relics & Eldritch tokens. I definitely think it should be more difficult than "3 10 packs of tokens", as that is pretty close to the starting 10 pack on Normal mode.

I welcomed the increased difficulty level this year. Seems like the last couple of years there were a lot of posts on how the combats were getting too easy. I did end up using a Potion of Death's Door for another player this year. I don't recall having to do that since I started saving those things. For the most part, the groups I ran with took a lot of damage against the giants, but all managed to move on to the last two rooms.

I'm curious and worried about this, are we at the point that Normal isn't meant to be played sealed pack anymore? If we can believe that due to challenge where multiple rare build based players and those starting down the UR path are having trouble then this is a valid point.

I'm betting most of us didnt' start out buying UR's when we started playing and its seeming like that's the only way to do anything beyond normal now.

I think this year's hardcore was a bit of an anomaly. Let's see how GHC goes before we overcorrect.

I think the goal is
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with mostly reds, but challenging, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: playable with reds and URs, but challenging. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging, just challenging. Can we get a 6th level?

Given the wide gap in tokens, I'd prefer goals like this:
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with some Reds, as well as several URs, and some Relics, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: Best played with URs, Relics, Eldritch, possibly some Legendary. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging for Best in Class builds.

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matt wrote:

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I may be the in the minority, but I welcome a bit more difficulty in the Hardcore level. But then, my group is outfitted with a ton of URs and some Relics & Eldritch tokens. I definitely think it should be more difficult than "3 10 packs of tokens", as that is pretty close to the starting 10 pack on Normal mode.

I welcomed the increased difficulty level this year. Seems like the last couple of years there were a lot of posts on how the combats were getting too easy. I did end up using a Potion of Death's Door for another player this year. I don't recall having to do that since I started saving those things. For the most part, the groups I ran with took a lot of damage against the giants, but all managed to move on to the last two rooms.

I'm curious and worried about this, are we at the point that Normal isn't meant to be played sealed pack anymore? If we can believe that due to challenge where multiple rare build based players and those starting down the UR path are having trouble then this is a valid point.

I'm betting most of us didnt' start out buying UR's when we started playing and its seeming like that's the only way to do anything beyond normal now.

I think this year's hardcore was a bit of an anomaly. Let's see how GHC goes before we overcorrect.

I think the goal is
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with mostly reds, but challenging, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: playable with reds and URs, but challenging. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging, just challenging. Can we get a 6th level?

Given the wide gap in tokens, I'd prefer goals like this:
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with some Reds, as well as several URs, and some Relics, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: Best played with URs, Relics, Eldritch, possibly some Legendary. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging for Best in Class builds.

I like this for Normal, Nightmare and Epic. I would adjust Hardcore just a little. I think they should have more reds and try for 5th level, but shouldn't need too many URs or relics.

Hardcore: playable with mostly reds and a few URs or Relics. 5th level not required, but recommended.

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matt wrote:

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I may be the in the minority, but I welcome a bit more difficulty in the Hardcore level. But then, my group is outfitted with a ton of URs and some Relics & Eldritch tokens. I definitely think it should be more difficult than "3 10 packs of tokens", as that is pretty close to the starting 10 pack on Normal mode.

I welcomed the increased difficulty level this year. Seems like the last couple of years there were a lot of posts on how the combats were getting too easy. I did end up using a Potion of Death's Door for another player this year. I don't recall having to do that since I started saving those things. For the most part, the groups I ran with took a lot of damage against the giants, but all managed to move on to the last two rooms.

I'm curious and worried about this, are we at the point that Normal isn't meant to be played sealed pack anymore? If we can believe that due to challenge where multiple rare build based players and those starting down the UR path are having trouble then this is a valid point.

I'm betting most of us didnt' start out buying UR's when we started playing and its seeming like that's the only way to do anything beyond normal now.

I think this year's hardcore was a bit of an anomaly. Let's see how GHC goes before we overcorrect.

I think the goal is
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with mostly reds, but challenging, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: playable with reds and URs, but challenging. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging, just challenging. Can we get a 6th level?

Given the wide gap in tokens, I'd prefer goals like this:
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with some Reds, as well as several URs, and some Relics, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: Best played with URs, Relics, Eldritch, possibly some Legendary. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging for Best in Class builds.

I like this for Normal, Nightmare and Epic. I would adjust Hardcore just a little. I think they should have more reds and try for 5th level, but shouldn't need too many URs or relics.

Hardcore: playable with mostly reds and a few URs or Relics. 5th level not required, but recommended.

I agree with this completely. Normal needs to stay as something that is possible to run with just a starter pack, as you'll always (hopefully) have new people.

Hardcore should be for those who do something like pickup 10 booster packs and supplement with some purchases to fill out the rest of the slots with reds. Level 5 should not be expected for all characters but should be recommended for a few (2 to 4).

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matt wrote:

Dave wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I may be the in the minority, but I welcome a bit more difficulty in the Hardcore level. But then, my group is outfitted with a ton of URs and some Relics & Eldritch tokens. I definitely think it should be more difficult than "3 10 packs of tokens", as that is pretty close to the starting 10 pack on Normal mode.

I welcomed the increased difficulty level this year. Seems like the last couple of years there were a lot of posts on how the combats were getting too easy. I did end up using a Potion of Death's Door for another player this year. I don't recall having to do that since I started saving those things. For the most part, the groups I ran with took a lot of damage against the giants, but all managed to move on to the last two rooms.

I'm curious and worried about this, are we at the point that Normal isn't meant to be played sealed pack anymore? If we can believe that due to challenge where multiple rare build based players and those starting down the UR path are having trouble then this is a valid point.

I'm betting most of us didnt' start out buying UR's when we started playing and its seeming like that's the only way to do anything beyond normal now.

I think this year's hardcore was a bit of an anomaly. Let's see how GHC goes before we overcorrect.

I think the goal is
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with mostly reds, but challenging, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: playable with reds and URs, but challenging. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging, just challenging. Can we get a 6th level?

Given the wide gap in tokens, I'd prefer goals like this:
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with some Reds, as well as several URs, and some Relics, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: Best played with URs, Relics, Eldritch, possibly some Legendary. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging for Best in Class builds.

I like this for Normal, Nightmare and Epic. I would adjust Hardcore just a little. I think they should have more reds and try for 5th level, but shouldn't need too many URs or relics.

Hardcore: playable with mostly reds and a few URs or Relics. 5th level not required, but recommended.

Sure, I'd be fine with that Hardcore definition. It still gets across that you need more than a few 10 packs.

Since we're talking about the giants. I think the melee attack against all party members was a wonky cluncky mechanic.

Our (first) DM insisted that the attack was against everyone and a melee attack, even though we had a paladin guarding 2 people. IMO that should have been 3 attacks to the paladin. But that's not how it played out.
It didn't help that the NPC didn't give the hint about hiding in the cage.

I know they roll only once and check the entire sheet so it was supposed to make combat quick and easy but since we have a countdown die rather then a true random, this made the attacks very streaky.

Imo

Normal, playable with nothing but your wits and a starter bag

HC, designed for best in slot reds

Nightmare, designed for lv5 and class defining URs

Epic, All bets are off


Dont really have much to say about the giants that hasn't already been said.

Harlax wrote: I think this room was an experiment. It may need some tuning, but the only way to make combat at all threatening at the top end is attacks that target multiple or all players. Historically its been hard to seriously threaten more than one player in a 12 minute room. And sometimes not even one.

Hitting all players is far less interesting to me than multiple players. But, I guess the decision making process for choosing multiple players is much more challenging. Having a fortification to defend the injured does help let the party identify who they are okay with being attacked.

I guess my takeaway from this thread and other threads bringing up the danger level of N2 is that I'd like to have a clearer idea what should be the criteria for a PUG hardcore run. I guess I've been pushing too much for hardcore play if my guidelines of everyone being 30+ HP, party not being underadventurered (six player hardcore runs very different IME from 10 player ones), solid party healing (or rezzes) don't really work for people who aren't looking for more challenging runs.

The recent threads do further encourage my group to just buy up runs or join forum runs to avoid being forced to play at normal, which is fine.

Mike Steele wrote: Given the wide gap in tokens, I'd prefer goals like this:
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with some Reds, as well as several URs, and some Relics, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: Best played with URs, Relics, Eldritch, possibly some Legendary. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging for Best in Class builds.

I feel that's too big of a jump from normal to hardcore. It goes from normal targetting additional investment of 0-$20 dollars per person to hardcore targetting additional investment of $700+ per person (~200 to get to 5th level, ~300 for a relic, ~200 for a couple more URs) if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly.

I think maybe some people's experience/impressions are different significantly due to whether they've got a full group with charm of synergy or not. Everybody having that extra 10 HP buffer from one slot really does have a huge impact on survivability and sense of urgency from the healers. The only reason we didn't have a death in N1 pick up group room 1 hardcore was because part of the group had a few sets of 4 tokens that collectively gave +9 hp to loan out to a couple players that came in with roughly a '3 extra bags' level collection.

Picc wrote: Imo

Normal, playable with nothing but your wits and a starter bag

HC, designed for best in slot reds

Nightmare, designed for lv5 and class defining URs

Epic, All bets are off


Dont really have much to say about the giants that hasn't already been said.

I think this is a good guide, we'll have to see the modules.

For my money though, N2 Hardcore might have been more challenge than N3 Epic.

Again - this is not a criticism, I liked N2 a lot, I didn't find it punishing but rather exciting.



I think another way to guide what you're ready for is looking at typical monster AC.

Let's say to have a good handle on things you want to be able to hit on a 12+.

Then you'd need around a:

+3-10 to-hit on Normal
+6-13 to-hit on Hardcore
+8-16 to-hit on Nightmare

You can count Bardsong, and strategically deployed Bless and Prayer in those totals.

I'm curious if the folks who really struggled with Hardcore had that kind of to-hit bonuses.

I struggled and my party had:
Monk +21
Ranger +19
Paladin +11
Cleric +10
Wizard - Auto-hit spells
Elf Wizard - Auto-hit spells

I'm not sure the stats on our Barbarian, Cleric, Fighter, and Rogue (much lower but they said they were geared for Hardcore and I believe it).

We should have brought the Bard I guess...

Aegoce wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: Given the wide gap in tokens, I'd prefer goals like this:
Normal: playable with a sealed pack, but challenging
Hardcore: playable with some Reds, as well as several URs, and some Relics, 5th level helpful
Nightmare: Best played with URs, Relics, Eldritch, possibly some Legendary. 5th level necessary
Epic: Challenging for Best in Class builds.

I feel that's too big of a jump from normal to hardcore. It goes from normal targetting additional investment of 0-$20 dollars per person to hardcore targetting additional investment of $700+ per person (~200 to get to 5th level, ~300 for a relic, ~200 for a couple more URs) if I'm understanding what you're saying correctly.

I think maybe some people's experience/impressions are different significantly due to whether they've got a full group with charm of synergy or not. Everybody having that extra 10 HP buffer from one slot really does have a huge impact on survivability and sense of urgency from the healers. The only reason we didn't have a death in N1 pick up group room 1 hardcore was because part of the group had a few sets of 4 tokens that collectively gave +9 hp to loan out to a couple players that came in with roughly a '3 extra bags' level collection.

From a dollars perspective, that is kind of how I see it.

Normal: 0 - Tens of Dollars
Hardcore: Hundreds of Dollars
Nightmare: Thousands of Dollars
Epic: Ten Thousand Plus

It seems to me like if you price Hardcore below that level, the jump from Normal to Hardcore is too small, and the jump from Hardcore to Nightmare is too large. That was actually the decision I made back in 2006, I didn't have enough tokens in 2005 to do Hardcore, so I did spend hundreds of dollars in 2006 to enable the switch to Hardcore. And of course it skyrocketed from there.