TOPIC: Important Update! The Astral Adventure is now NEW

Harlax wrote: I have neither inside information, nor do I have a crystal ball. But given recent personnel announcements, I won't be surprised if TD expands even further. Imagine a Con every other month. In that world, it make no sense to give even a smidgen of extra XP for dungeons already run.

Jon - I'm not sure who you are arguing with?

Is anyone here saying people should get XP for re-running the same content?

But! It may interest you to know that 28 out of 30 9th level players have XP for re-running the same dungeon on different difficulties. So... there is that.

If your a top TD player then, make another event. Play twice a year.
If you can’t you already got to enjoy your time on top for past years. So you got your benefit. If need be make a 2nd event every other year, it will still take others years to catch up. This was Jeff Ideal, he’s trying to get more players to the other cons, and grow the game. Just let him grow the game already how he feels he needs to.
Not every move can be made based on the needs of a handful of players.

When do tickets go on sale? How will we volunteers buy them? Will we have our schedules in time to order tickets? Sorry for the questions but I will need to get a run in.

Oh, and to wade into this debate. I get it, the people who only go to Gen Con want the XP to stay only at Gen Con. That is what it boils down to. All the pretty wording in the world, but that's what it is. You want it to be at Gen Con because you don't want anyone catching you or what not. Seriously, how is that a good argument??? That is NOT a good system and it is why True Dungeon isn't growing even though it's convention count is. PAX was an amazing event that barely any of our regular players bothered to come to. Sorry, it has always been working is a lame excuse. Go to the conventions that you can make it to, get the XP that you can. It's a game, and it's a business and it has to grow. Making every other convention that it goes to just copies of Gen Con is the opposite of growing. Change is hard but necessary.

archmage78 wrote: That is NOT a good system and it is why True Dungeon isn't growing even though it's convention count is.

I can’t agree with this statement on at least two counts.

1. Not sure how you define “growing.” More venues, more total ticket sales, more new players: by any measure I can imagine, it definitely is growing. Maybe not as fast as we’d like, but it’s growing.

2. The XP system feels like an add-on. I’m sure its impact on keeping newbies away is negligible. While there may be some newbies turned off by the current version, I think there are bigger reasons new players aren’t flocking to it at the satellites - like the price. It’s a huge risk to buy a ticket that costs more than a one-day badge for an event you’ve never heard of. Changing XP won’t have much effect on that; only time and word-of-mouth will do that.

Not saying we should or shouldn’t change the system. I think it’s obvious we have to. But as long as we’re being honest, I don’t believe anything we do to XP will have any perceptible impact on ticket sales.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Matthew, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I think in all of those cases the max XP could still have been gotten from GENCON. You didn't have to go to those conventions to get the XP.

You are likely correct about that, I am certainly not sure one way or the other.

So - I was trying to figure this out - it looks to me like those who attended True Realm got more XP than was available at Gen Con alone.

Looking at your dungeon history for example:

truedungeon.com/top-players/adventures?user_id=3321

In 2009 your XP was:

3700 from Gen Con (including XP from both normal and Nightmare Smoak?)
2000 XP from True Realm

Event                                             Room 	Base XP	XP/Room	XP Event XP Towards Total
True Dungeon Smoak (NIGHTMARE) GenCon 2009	  7	650	100	1350	1350
True Dungeon Smoak GenCon 2009	                  7	650	50	1000	1000
True Dungeon Five Aspects (NIGHTMARE) GenCon 2009 7	650	100	1350	1350
True Dungeon Retro True Realm 2009	          7	650	50	1000	1000
True Dungeon Director's Cut True Realm 2009	  7	650	50	1000	1000

I don't believe there was any way to get 5,700 XP from 2009 Gen Con alone.

This player has 7,050 (!) XP from 2009 True Dungeon events alone (so much people nowadays being able to level faster than in the past!).

truedungeon.com/top-players/adventures?user_id=10959

It appears there was a rule change at some point in the past around gaining XP for running the dungeon multiple times at different difficulties. Or maybe the rules didn't change but bookeeping was done wrong on XP.

To explain what happened at true realm:
The additional XP you see is from the re-make of the very first dungeon (from 2003). And it offered XP as that 2003 dungeon. So, you will see many players like myself that missed the first year getting full XP for that dungeon at true realm PLUS full XP from the gencon dungeons, and you will also see players like raven who have full XP from gencon plus a smaller amount on the 2003 remake...because hardcore was not available in 2003, so raven got the difference from 2003 and the hardcore run at true realm.

Also, as i looked up info i remembered that normal and hardcore offered different XP, so you had to play both to get max XP. Which is why you see people getting multiple instances of XP. It was later streamlined to give max XP for a single hardcore run.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

archmage78 wrote: That is NOT a good system and it is why True Dungeon isn't growing even though it's convention count is.

I can’t agree with this statement on at least two counts.

1. Not sure how you define “growing.” More venues, more total ticket sales, more new players: by any measure I can imagine, it definitely is growing. Maybe not as fast as we’d like, but it’s growing.

2. The XP system feels like an add-on. I’m sure its impact on keeping newbies away is negligible. While there may be some newbies turned off by the current version, I think there are bigger reasons new players aren’t flocking to it at the satellites - like the price. It’s a huge risk to buy a ticket that costs more than a one-day badge for an event you’ve never heard of. Changing XP won’t have much effect on that; only time and word-of-mouth will do that.

Not saying we should or shouldn’t change the system. I think it’s obvious we have to. But as long as we’re being honest, I don’t believe anything we do to XP will have any perceptible impact on ticket sales.

Brad, I agree with everything you said. I doubt new players are even thinking about XP when deciding whether or not to try True Dungeon, most probably don't even find out about True Dungeon XP until they are in checkout after the Dungeon.

And, to clarify/reiterate, my proposal to allow extra XP for unique events beyond the base Dungeons up to two levels below the top would in no way inhibit growth of new players at any conventions. Since new players will hit Level 8 before having any restrictions, they would have to max out at 6K XP for five years before seeing any limitations at all. And this would actually be a loosening of the recent policy that allowed extra XP for unique events if you were level 5 or lower (I think that was the limitation).

My proposal to have the Astral Adventure at GENCON, even it if has to replace a version of one of the base Dungeons, isn't aimed so much at XP as it is getting more content for GENCON. Since the Dungeon will be completely developed and constructed by Origins, it only makes sense to find a way to offer it at GENCON as well. It seems to make logical sense as well - the two Dungeons developed at GENCON are repeated throughout the "Season" at the other Conventions - why not have the new Origins adventure go through the Convention cycle as well (maybe with the addition of a new room like is done for the base adventures)? I'd guess the vast majority of True Dungeon players only attend one convention, why not give them as much content as possible?

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: its F'ing XP....you get some cool perks...yay that is it

it doesnt let you buy tickets early...get better tokens...just add ons from TD


It doesn't do anything else...it can only help you

+1 to this.

It's f'ing xp. If it's that important to people then they need to make all the TD Cons. Quite trying to lobby for a system that isn't fair to everyone. You want your XP then go get it and play TD at the Cons that offer it. This argument of the vets getting the shaft is absolutely hilarious. They are no different from the newer players when it comes to the means to make the different Cons.

Amen, I'm far from a newbie but relatively behind on the XP curve over time as i didn't do my 1st hardcore run till my 3rd year and then only 1 not both.

I want my goodies, i've been watching and looking forward to getting to lvl 7 after this Gencon so i can have my purple badge holder in time for GHC. I really don't care about leaderboards and rather not have XP translate at all to a 'hall of fame'. If such a thing were to exists it rather it be for the long term players and volunteers who may otherwise not get recognition but have been around a help(ed) make the game what it is.

Right now i'm sitting back with the mead and snackfood as the this thread plays out.

archmage78 wrote: Oh, and to wade into this debate. I get it, the people who only go to Gen Con want the XP to stay only at Gen Con. That is what it boils down to. All the pretty wording in the world, but that's what it is. You want it to be at Gen Con because you don't want anyone catching you or what not. Seriously, how is that a good argument??? That is NOT a good system and it is why True Dungeon isn't growing even though it's convention count is. PAX was an amazing event that barely any of our regular players bothered to come to. Sorry, it has always been working is a lame excuse. Go to the conventions that you can make it to, get the XP that you can. It's a game, and it's a business and it has to grow. Making every other convention that it goes to just copies of Gen Con is the opposite of growing. Change is hard but necessary.

By the information I saw Pax tickets sold quite well this year.

GHC in 2016 was pretty light on Friday. Virtually sold out on Saturday. In 2017 with the expansion to two dungeons there were some unsold tickets, but fewer than the prior year. GHC is trending in the right direction.

I didn't go to Origins last year, but will be there this year. I didn't track ticket sales there.

I don't think the objective evidence supports your contention that TD is not growing.

How about this as a reasonable solution?
Create a list of “Originators” (You could call it whatever you want) Never to be changed and give XP for different dungeons.
1. This allows those who are unwilling OR unable to attend any con other than GC to retain a position of preeminence for all of the community to see in perpetuity.
2. This allows players who want and are able to attend multiple cons and play distinctly different dungeons to receive distinctly different XP for those dungeons.
3. Potentially, having distinctly different dungeons at different conventions would incentivize veteran players to volunteer at those different conventions by making it financially easier to attend those different conventions and to run those different Dungeon’s.
What this does not do is impinge on anyone’s status that has been playing this game from the beginning. Nor does it limit new players from rising to a higher level if and only if they are willing and able to attend different conventions with different dungeons and receive experience points for their commitment/enthusiasm/support for True Dungeon.
I really tried to keep this unemotional and as fair to all as possible.

Does this seem like a reasonable solution?

Part of this is repetitious, but I'm going to add a few comments.

1. I really do not like a system that awards more XP at lower levels, but has a cut-off to protect those at the top. It assumes that only those at the top care about their position on the leaderboard. Say there are two people, one with 26,000 XP and one with 25,000 XP. They both get 4,000 XP at Gen Con, so one is happy to get to 8th level. But then notices the person at 29,000 XP is able to get credit for another dungeon. Will that second person be capped at 1000 extra xp and stopped from getting more, or will they get a full 2000 XP and jump to 31,000 XP and leapfrog over anyone between 30,000 and 30,950? Any new system should apply equally to everyone, or almost by definition it isn't fair.

2. Let's face it, XP is an honor system. Does anyone else know someone who played a normal level run, but took their code and input the run as if they ran hardcore or nightmare? I know of at least one person and wouldn't be surprised if their were more. At that point, comparisons start to break down. And if XP really are any more than a fun thing to track, there would be more of a black market for people who have extra codes. What's to stop them from selling those codes to people who were not even at the con? So just keep XP as a fun thing and don't make the rewards all that significant.

3. Lastly, I'm not irritated at all be the thought of people passing me if I can't make a con, nor do I feel sorry if I pass someone because I could make a con and they couldn't. I sometimes just really wish I could have a complete record of all the runs I did. I'm not looking for extra XP, just a log of all the runs I did. However, once I do a version of a run, the system won't allow me to enter a second run of the same version at the same difficulty level. It's not a big deal at all, but irritates me more than this discussion.

Again, this is just another case of some people are going to be upset no matter what is decided. And while I agree that XP is not a major attraction to newbies, it also says something about anyone who threatens to quit the game over this debate. Personally, how many runs I do or conventions I attend will not be impacted by this decision.

there have been some post on the forum that I shake my head at


this one takes the cake


TD is not about Gen Con. TD is about TD

If TD wants to do unique things at other cons ...so be it


nobody had a problem with the Astral adventure being run at Origins....UNTIL XP came into play

IT IS F'ING XP.....IT means nothing other than...I have played longer and more than you...that doesnt mean anything. you get nothing from that