TOPIC: Important Update! The Astral Adventure is now NEW

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: It's been a very long day. Thanks for your feedback on this. I'll talk to the team via phone on Saturday and get their input on different ideas. We should have a final decision by Monday morning.

Thanks again.

Thanks, Jeff! One thing to consider is that far more people play True Dungeon at GENCON than at other conventions. For those that do GENCON but not other conventions and who care about XP (I'm guessing it is a significant number of people), it would be a real negative for other conventions to offer more XP than does GENCON.

Why would it be a real negative? If you want to play TD aren't you going to play were and when you can? I also wonder what you think a significant number is. This are real questions I am attempting to understand.

I think the simple fact that there are far more people that play True Dungeon at GENCON than at the other conventions shows that there are a lot of people, for whatever reason (time, money, etc.), only attend GENCON and no other conventions. So there are clearly a lot of people that enjoy True Dungeon that don't play it at every single convention it's at. Especially since Origins and GENCON are less than two months apart.

I obviously don't know an exact number of players that only play TD at GENCON and to whom XP is important. There seem to be thousands of people that only play it at GENCON, and since XP is important to a lot of people (even the more casual players that I play with), I think it's a lot of people. The counterpoint obviously to someone asserting that XP isn't important to very many people would be that, in that case, why offer exclusive XP outside of GENCON?

I do understand that if True Dungeon has exclusive XP at non-GENCON conventions that it might drive additional attendance there. That is counterbalanced by the GENCON players that won't attend those conventions and might be unhappy and disincentivized by getting less XP than those going to other conventions. I'd imagine those and other factors we haven't even considered are what Jeff and the team are discussing this weekend.

I wouldn't consider it to be Jeff being pressured to change his decision, but rather him considering some points / options that perhaps they hadn't considered before.

So, lots of people play at gencon. And many care about XP. And some of those cant/wont attend other cons. There is no logical reason that the conclusion should be to cap XP at gencon unless you want to add one more premise: those few people mentioned above should receive special treatment/consideration.

I suppose you could try one other approach: if you feel that any player who only attends 1 con per year should be able to get max XP. But i would think that is a terrible restriction to place on TD.

Im sorry, mike, but TD can and should grow beyond being a gencon event that happens to also run its gencon dungeons elsewhere. Allowing non-gencon XP opens the possibilty that there could be many new dungeons and other events every year. I would love to see that, even if i couldnt make it to all of them.

I think my proposal to allow the extra XP at different cons for different Dungeons up to two levels below the top XP level, and then cap at 4K XP per year, would accomplish all of that. It would certainly allow growth of new players at different conventions, as they would get the full XP for years, as even with the extra XP it would take them years to reach Level 8 (where the 4K XP per year would currently begin) or Level 9 or more (which is where the 4K might start by the time they reach that level).

Plus, it would keep the top of the leaderboard from just reflecting who had the most money and time to go to all of the different conventions. Unless, of course, that is what True Dungeon management wants the top of the Leaderboard to look like.

Egads, no! That may be the worst 'solution' of all. First, it guarantees the top of the leader board doesnt change until we start dieing (or have to stop playing for some other unfortunate reason). So, all the players looking at XP aspiring to those levels know that they will never get to the top.
AND the problem that it is trying to fix (preventing long time players from getting passed on the leaderboard) isnt prevented at all, it is just pushed down to a different group of players.

I'm curious why you think that people on the XP list should be passed if they continue to play adventures at max XP. If someone, for example, is #50 on the list, and plays both Dungeons next year and earns max XP, do you think that they should be passed by others? That doesn't seem like a fair system at all to me, nor a logical one. If someone is #20 on the list, I'm not sure why you see it as a problem that they stay at #20 (or even more higher) if they earn max XP on their Dungeons.

Raven, for instance, is higher than me on the chart, and I certainly don't expect to ever pass her unless she misses a Dungeon or gets less than full XP on one. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I won't pass her, and I don't feel that the system is unfair somehow because I don't. To be honest, I'll be a bit sad if the day comes that I do pass her, I hope that she keeps that perfect score up for a very long time. And I would rather not have the system changed so that she has to travel from Canada for multiple conventions in order to keep the perfect XP score.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this, and see what Jeff and company come up with on Monday.

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: It's been a very long day. Thanks for your feedback on this. I'll talk to the team via phone on Saturday and get their input on different ideas. We should have a final decision by Monday morning.

Thanks again.

Thanks, Jeff! One thing to consider is that far more people play True Dungeon at GENCON than at other conventions. For those that do GENCON but not other conventions and who care about XP (I'm guessing it is a significant number of people), it would be a real negative for other conventions to offer more XP than does GENCON.

Why would it be a real negative? If you want to play TD aren't you going to play were and when you can? I also wonder what you think a significant number is. This are real questions I am attempting to understand.

I think the simple fact that there are far more people that play True Dungeon at GENCON than at the other conventions shows that there are a lot of people, for whatever reason (time, money, etc.), only attend GENCON and no other conventions. So there are clearly a lot of people that enjoy True Dungeon that don't play it at every single convention it's at. Especially since Origins and GENCON are less than two months apart.

I obviously don't know an exact number of players that only play TD at GENCON and to whom XP is important. There seem to be thousands of people that only play it at GENCON, and since XP is important to a lot of people (even the more casual players that I play with), I think it's a lot of people. The counterpoint obviously to someone asserting that XP isn't important to very many people would be that, in that case, why offer exclusive XP outside of GENCON?

I do understand that if True Dungeon has exclusive XP at non-GENCON conventions that it might drive additional attendance there. That is counterbalanced by the GENCON players that won't attend those conventions and might be unhappy and disincentivized by getting less XP than those going to other conventions. I'd imagine those and other factors we haven't even considered are what Jeff and the team are discussing this weekend.

I wouldn't consider it to be Jeff being pressured to change his decision, but rather him considering some points / options that perhaps they hadn't considered before.

So, lots of people play at gencon. And many care about XP. And some of those cant/wont attend other cons. There is no logical reason that the conclusion should be to cap XP at gencon unless you want to add one more premise: those few people mentioned above should receive special treatment/consideration.

I suppose you could try one other approach: if you feel that any player who only attends 1 con per year should be able to get max XP. But i would think that is a terrible restriction to place on TD.

Im sorry, mike, but TD can and should grow beyond being a gencon event that happens to also run its gencon dungeons elsewhere. Allowing non-gencon XP opens the possibilty that there could be many new dungeons and other events every year. I would love to see that, even if i couldnt make it to all of them.

I think my proposal to allow the extra XP at different cons for different Dungeons up to two levels below the top XP level, and then cap at 4K XP per year, would accomplish all of that. It would certainly allow growth of new players at different conventions, as they would get the full XP for years, as even with the extra XP it would take them years to reach Level 8 (where the 4K XP per year would currently begin) or Level 9 or more (which is where the 4K might start by the time they reach that level).

Plus, it would keep the top of the leaderboard from just reflecting who had the most money and time to go to all of the different conventions. Unless, of course, that is what True Dungeon management wants the top of the Leaderboard to look like.

Egads, no! That may be the worst 'solution' of all. First, it guarantees the top of the leader board doesnt change until we start dieing (or have to stop playing for some other unfortunate reason). So, all the players looking at XP aspiring to those levels know that they will never get to the top.
AND the problem that it is trying to fix (preventing long time players from getting passed on the leaderboard) isnt prevented at all, it is just pushed down to a different group of players.

I'm curious why you think that people on the XP list should be passed if they continue to play adventures at max XP. If someone, for example, is #50 on the list, and plays both Dungeons next year and earns max XP, do you think that they should be passed by others? That doesn't seem like a fair system at all to me, nor a logical one. If someone is #20 on the list, I'm not sure why you see it as a problem that they stay at #20 (or even more higher) if they earn max XP on their Dungeons.

Raven, for instance, is higher than me on the chart, and I certainly don't expect to ever pass her unless she misses a Dungeon or gets less than full XP on one. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I won't pass her, and I don't feel that the system is unfair somehow because I don't. To be honest, I'll be a bit sad if the day comes that I do pass her, I hope that she keeps that perfect score up for a very long time. And I would rather not have the system changed so that she has to travel from Canada for multiple conventions in order to keep the perfect XP score.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this, and see what Jeff and company come up with on Monday.

travis wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: It's been a very long day. Thanks for your feedback on this. I'll talk to the team via phone on Saturday and get their input on different ideas. We should have a final decision by Monday morning.

Thanks again.

Thanks, Jeff! One thing to consider is that far more people play True Dungeon at GENCON than at other conventions. For those that do GENCON but not other conventions and who care about XP (I'm guessing it is a significant number of people), it would be a real negative for other conventions to offer more XP than does GENCON.

Why would it be a real negative? If you want to play TD aren't you going to play were and when you can? I also wonder what you think a significant number is. This are real questions I am attempting to understand.

I think the simple fact that there are far more people that play True Dungeon at GENCON than at the other conventions shows that there are a lot of people, for whatever reason (time, money, etc.), only attend GENCON and no other conventions. So there are clearly a lot of people that enjoy True Dungeon that don't play it at every single convention it's at. Especially since Origins and GENCON are less than two months apart.

I obviously don't know an exact number of players that only play TD at GENCON and to whom XP is important. There seem to be thousands of people that only play it at GENCON, and since XP is important to a lot of people (even the more casual players that I play with), I think it's a lot of people. The counterpoint obviously to someone asserting that XP isn't important to very many people would be that, in that case, why offer exclusive XP outside of GENCON?

I do understand that if True Dungeon has exclusive XP at non-GENCON conventions that it might drive additional attendance there. That is counterbalanced by the GENCON players that won't attend those conventions and might be unhappy and disincentivized by getting less XP than those going to other conventions. I'd imagine those and other factors we haven't even considered are what Jeff and the team are discussing this weekend.

I wouldn't consider it to be Jeff being pressured to change his decision, but rather him considering some points / options that perhaps they hadn't considered before.

So, lots of people play at gencon. And many care about XP. And some of those cant/wont attend other cons. There is no logical reason that the conclusion should be to cap XP at gencon unless you want to add one more premise: those few people mentioned above should receive special treatment/consideration.

I suppose you could try one other approach: if you feel that any player who only attends 1 con per year should be able to get max XP. But i would think that is a terrible restriction to place on TD.

Im sorry, mike, but TD can and should grow beyond being a gencon event that happens to also run its gencon dungeons elsewhere. Allowing non-gencon XP opens the possibilty that there could be many new dungeons and other events every year. I would love to see that, even if i couldnt make it to all of them.

I think my proposal to allow the extra XP at different cons for different Dungeons up to two levels below the top XP level, and then cap at 4K XP per year, would accomplish all of that. It would certainly allow growth of new players at different conventions, as they would get the full XP for years, as even with the extra XP it would take them years to reach Level 8 (where the 4K XP per year would currently begin) or Level 9 or more (which is where the 4K might start by the time they reach that level).

Plus, it would keep the top of the leaderboard from just reflecting who had the most money and time to go to all of the different conventions. Unless, of course, that is what True Dungeon management wants the top of the Leaderboard to look like.

Egads, no! That may be the worst 'solution' of all. First, it guarantees the top of the leader board doesnt change until we start dieing (or have to stop playing for some other unfortunate reason). So, all the players looking at XP aspiring to those levels know that they will never get to the top.
AND the problem that it is trying to fix (preventing long time players from getting passed on the leaderboard) isnt prevented at all, it is just pushed down to a different group of players.

I'm curious why you think that people on the XP list should be passed if they continue to play adventures at max XP. If someone, for example, is #50 on the list, and plays both Dungeons next year and earns max XP, do you think that they should be passed by others? That doesn't seem like a fair system at all to me, nor a logical one. If someone is #20 on the list, I'm not sure why you see it as a problem that they stay at #20 (or even more higher) if they earn max XP on their Dungeons.

Raven, for instance, is higher than me on the chart, and I certainly don't expect to ever pass her unless she misses a Dungeon or gets less than full XP on one. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I won't pass her, and I don't feel that the system is unfair somehow because I don't. To be honest, I'll be a bit sad if the day comes that I do pass her, I hope that she keeps that perfect score up for a very long time. And I would rather not have the system changed so that she has to travel from Canada for multiple conventions in order to keep the perfect XP score.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this, and see what Jeff and company come up with on Monday.

i'm curious why you think that non-GenCon adventures that are unique shouldn't get XP? why does TD need to allow for GenCon attendees to be able to get the maximum XP each year regardless of what adventures are offered at other cons?

sure TD started at GenCon but its grown past that con now.

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Jeff Martin wrote: It's been a very long day. Thanks for your feedback on this. I'll talk to the team via phone on Saturday and get their input on different ideas. We should have a final decision by Monday morning.

Thanks again.

Thanks, Jeff! One thing to consider is that far more people play True Dungeon at GENCON than at other conventions. For those that do GENCON but not other conventions and who care about XP (I'm guessing it is a significant number of people), it would be a real negative for other conventions to offer more XP than does GENCON.

Why would it be a real negative? If you want to play TD aren't you going to play were and when you can? I also wonder what you think a significant number is. This are real questions I am attempting to understand.

I think the simple fact that there are far more people that play True Dungeon at GENCON than at the other conventions shows that there are a lot of people, for whatever reason (time, money, etc.), only attend GENCON and no other conventions. So there are clearly a lot of people that enjoy True Dungeon that don't play it at every single convention it's at. Especially since Origins and GENCON are less than two months apart.

I obviously don't know an exact number of players that only play TD at GENCON and to whom XP is important. There seem to be thousands of people that only play it at GENCON, and since XP is important to a lot of people (even the more casual players that I play with), I think it's a lot of people. The counterpoint obviously to someone asserting that XP isn't important to very many people would be that, in that case, why offer exclusive XP outside of GENCON?

I do understand that if True Dungeon has exclusive XP at non-GENCON conventions that it might drive additional attendance there. That is counterbalanced by the GENCON players that won't attend those conventions and might be unhappy and disincentivized by getting less XP than those going to other conventions. I'd imagine those and other factors we haven't even considered are what Jeff and the team are discussing this weekend.

I wouldn't consider it to be Jeff being pressured to change his decision, but rather him considering some points / options that perhaps they hadn't considered before.

So, lots of people play at gencon. And many care about XP. And some of those cant/wont attend other cons. There is no logical reason that the conclusion should be to cap XP at gencon unless you want to add one more premise: those few people mentioned above should receive special treatment/consideration.

I suppose you could try one other approach: if you feel that any player who only attends 1 con per year should be able to get max XP. But i would think that is a terrible restriction to place on TD.

Im sorry, mike, but TD can and should grow beyond being a gencon event that happens to also run its gencon dungeons elsewhere. Allowing non-gencon XP opens the possibilty that there could be many new dungeons and other events every year. I would love to see that, even if i couldnt make it to all of them.

I think my proposal to allow the extra XP at different cons for different Dungeons up to two levels below the top XP level, and then cap at 4K XP per year, would accomplish all of that. It would certainly allow growth of new players at different conventions, as they would get the full XP for years, as even with the extra XP it would take them years to reach Level 8 (where the 4K XP per year would currently begin) or Level 9 or more (which is where the 4K might start by the time they reach that level).

Plus, it would keep the top of the leaderboard from just reflecting who had the most money and time to go to all of the different conventions. Unless, of course, that is what True Dungeon management wants the top of the Leaderboard to look like.

Egads, no! That may be the worst 'solution' of all. First, it guarantees the top of the leader board doesnt change until we start dieing (or have to stop playing for some other unfortunate reason). So, all the players looking at XP aspiring to those levels know that they will never get to the top.
AND the problem that it is trying to fix (preventing long time players from getting passed on the leaderboard) isnt prevented at all, it is just pushed down to a different group of players.

I'm curious why you think that people on the XP list should be passed if they continue to play adventures at max XP. If someone, for example, is #50 on the list, and plays both Dungeons next year and earns max XP, do you think that they should be passed by others? That doesn't seem like a fair system at all to me, nor a logical one. If someone is #20 on the list, I'm not sure why you see it as a problem that they stay at #20 (or even more higher) if they earn max XP on their Dungeons.

Raven, for instance, is higher than me on the chart, and I certainly don't expect to ever pass her unless she misses a Dungeon or gets less than full XP on one. And it doesn't bother me in the slightest that I won't pass her, and I don't feel that the system is unfair somehow because I don't. To be honest, I'll be a bit sad if the day comes that I do pass her, I hope that she keeps that perfect score up for a very long time. And I would rather not have the system changed so that she has to travel from Canada for multiple conventions in order to keep the perfect XP score.

I think we'll have to agree to disagree on this, and see what Jeff and company come up with on Monday.

Brad wrote: we need a TD run in other countries like Australia

Maybe PAXAU?

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad wrote: we need a TD run in other countries like Australia

Maybe PAXAU?

I'm hoping that True Dungeon finds it's way quickly to any Moon or Mars colonies that might be established.

Arnold wrote: Is all of the info on XP located in the PHB? I had no idea that benefits existed beyond the Lords and Ladies forum access.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: Matthew, perhaps I'm mistaken, but I think in all of those cases the max XP could still have been gotten from GENCON. You didn't have to go to those conventions to get the XP.

You are likely correct about that, I am certainly not sure one way or the other.

Event                                             Room 	Base XP	XP/Room	XP Event XP Towards Total
True Dungeon Smoak (NIGHTMARE) GenCon 2009	  7	650	100	1350	1350
True Dungeon Smoak GenCon 2009	                  7	650	50	1000	1000
True Dungeon Five Aspects (NIGHTMARE) GenCon 2009 7	650	100	1350	1350
True Dungeon Retro True Realm 2009	          7	650	50	1000	1000
True Dungeon Director's Cut True Realm 2009	  7	650	50	1000	1000

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: ...the purple badge holder is awesome.