TOPIC: Proposed change to Monk and Ranger bonuses

Mike Steele wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: The main reason (from what I can gather) that Ranger and Monk are so powerful is that they get to add their combat bonuses to two sliders instead of one.

What if we treated the melee damage bonus kind of like a pool, like with area attack spells or LoDS healing? Just apply the damage bonus to the first Monk or Ranger slider the DM gets to that hits in combat, and if the second slider from the Monk or Ranger also hits it just gets the base weapon damage. That shouldn't be too hard for the DM to deal with.

That would really help level the melee playing field (and ranged for the Monk when using GoTFF).

This is absurd, let’s just all play fighters, no other classes, then we can play fair on a level playing field.

Edit -
I agree that other sources should be able to match the damage per round of the monk one on one. I also think GotFF are an issue and should get a nerf reprint. I think modifying a class because a token exists is absurd.

Per your edited comment, wouldn't restricting the damage bonus to the melee token from the Monk and Ranger to the slide that slides the highest number would accomplish the goal of letting other classes be in the ballpark of damage per round of the Monk and Ranger? That was the point of the proposal.

I totally agree with you that the GotFF is an issue and should be nerfed. Unfortunately it doesn't look at this point like that will happen. That's not directly connected to the proposal in this thread though, I'd have made the proposal regardless of whether or not the GotFF exists, because Melee combat would still be an issue. I'm not proposing the modification because of the existence of any one token, but because the current rules allow Monk and Ranger to add the full damage modifier to both weapon slides, giving them potentially twice the bonus from damage modifiers as any other classes.

You’re right, just nerf monks and they’ll do the same damage as fighters and barbarians. The other option is play monk, then you can just do the most damage, it only take a few k in investment and apparently the ire of your fellow gamers.

Barbarians, wizards and rogues should get more DPR, I am just suggesting looking at doing that, instead of nerfing other classes. Bring everyone to a level playing field, it’s better than cutting people down to everyone else’s level.

macXdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

macXdmg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: The main reason (from what I can gather) that Ranger and Monk are so powerful is that they get to add their combat bonuses to two sliders instead of one.

What if we treated the melee damage bonus kind of like a pool, like with area attack spells or LoDS healing? Just apply the damage bonus to the first Monk or Ranger slider the DM gets to that hits in combat, and if the second slider from the Monk or Ranger also hits it just gets the base weapon damage. That shouldn't be too hard for the DM to deal with.

That would really help level the melee playing field (and ranged for the Monk when using GoTFF).

This is absurd, let’s just all play fighters, no other classes, then we can play fair on a level playing field.

Edit -
I agree that other sources should be able to match the damage per round of the monk one on one. I also think GotFF are an issue and should get a nerf reprint. I think modifying a class because a token exists is absurd.

Per your edited comment, wouldn't restricting the damage bonus to the melee token from the Monk and Ranger to the slide that slides the highest number would accomplish the goal of letting other classes be in the ballpark of damage per round of the Monk and Ranger? That was the point of the proposal.

I totally agree with you that the GotFF is an issue and should be nerfed. Unfortunately it doesn't look at this point like that will happen. That's not directly connected to the proposal in this thread though, I'd have made the proposal regardless of whether or not the GotFF exists, because Melee combat would still be an issue. I'm not proposing the modification because of the existence of any one token, but because the current rules allow Monk and Ranger to add the full damage modifier to both weapon slides, giving them potentially twice the bonus from damage modifiers as any other classes.

You’re right, just nerf monks and they’ll do the same damage as fighters and barbarians. The other option is play monk, then you can just do the most damage, it only take a few k in investment and apparently the ire of your fellow gamers.

Barbarians, wizards and rogues should get more DPR, I am just suggesting looking at doing that, instead of nerfing other classes. Bring everyone to a level playing field, it’s better than cutting people down to everyone else’s level.

I understand what you're saying, but it would pretty much take doubling the combat damage bonus for all (or nearly all) other classes to bring them up to Monk/Ranger level, wouldn't it?

Curious to me why finese type melee folks use strength instead of dexterity as a too hit and damage modifier.

edwin wrote: Curious to me why finese type melee folks use strength instead of dexterity as a too hit and damage modifier.

It was never added as a design potential for melee weapons and there are not enough +DEX items to make the damage viable on a ranged build.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote: Curious to me why finese type melee folks use strength instead of dexterity as a too hit and damage modifier.

It was never added as a design potential for melee weapons and there are not enough +DEX items to make the damage viable on a ranged build.

Just curious if the numbers were run for those classes with two melee sliders what it would do. It would also allow uncoupling of the two melee sliders from those that just have one.

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote: Curious to me why finese type melee folks use strength instead of dexterity as a too hit and damage modifier.

It was never added as a design potential for melee weapons and there are not enough +DEX items to make the damage viable on a ranged build.

Just curious if the numbers were run for those classes with two melee sliders what it would do. It would also allow uncoupling of the two melee sliders from those that just have one.

I am not sure exactly what you are asking.

Ranged Ranger does not compete with the damage of Melee Ranger
"Ranged" monk is traditionally Melee Monk with Gloves of Flying Fists, there are no versions of the Monk that would use a non flying fists build for Ranged due to melee damage modifiers on their melee weapons.

edwin wrote: Curious to me why finese type melee folks use strength instead of dexterity as a too hit and damage modifier.

It gets brought up almost every year in token suggestions. And then, it gets pointed out that if you let a build use DEX for melee to-hit and damage, the build can safely ignore STR entirely to boost DEX. And while you're boosting DEX, you automatically boost AC, Reflex saves, and ranged to-hit at the same time. And there's no penalty then for tokens that make tradeoffs to boost DEX and lower STR. There aren't other stats that care about STR, like there are that care about DEX.

Mike Steele wrote:

macXdmg wrote: You’re right, just nerf monks and they’ll do the same damage as fighters and barbarians. The other option is play monk, then you can just do the most damage, it only take a few k in investment and apparently the ire of your fellow gamers.

Barbarians, wizards and rogues should get more DPR, I am just suggesting looking at doing that, instead of nerfing other classes. Bring everyone to a level playing field, it’s better than cutting people down to everyone else’s level.

I understand what you're saying, but it would pretty much take doubling the combat damage bonus for all (or nearly all) other classes to bring them up to Monk/Ranger level, wouldn't it?

I actually don’t believe that all other classes need to be at the same level for top damage. I also think it should be easier for a few classes to do as much as monks and rangers. Tank and support classes should probably only be able to reach 75 and 50% of the damage output of the DPR classes. And DPR classes should probably all be within 10% of each other.

Mages I don’t know how to add chance to increase their damage output so I don’t know that I know a “fix” for them. MEC helps, but I’m not sure that’s great either as it plays with health rather than chance. MEC is very cool, and unique, and I don’t think needs to change. other options I haven’t a solution too personally.

Barbarians wielding two handed should do more damage. The damage wheel might need to be the solution, double the value thrown on the damage wheel might be part of it. I don’t have a single line solution to suggest here. I also don’t know that a single line solution is a great way to fix any of these,

Rogues backstab / support should probably be 1st, or first two times they crit (items adding extra backstabbery) getting an extra 5/10(level depending) added to damage (and double it) and every time they land on a space with a friendly who hit they get that 5 or 10 damage also. Maybe keep the place ability also.

Those are damaging classes (well rogues might be support I could see that also) and solutions that would help the gap likely and wouldn’t just be “cut off their knees please.”

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: "Ranged" monk is traditionally Melee Monk with Gloves of Flying Fists, there are no versions of the Monk that would use a non flying fists build for Ranged due to melee damage modifiers on their melee weapons.

That, I can agree, needs to be fixed. I do not know how.

I would also like to see ranged class options be real options. My solution is just a ton of “archers bracers” type options and I don’t think that is a great solution. The monk rings benefit to ranged and melee is actually another “Ranged build is less bad” option. The melee bonuses actually are partly the cause of this, and this problem doesn’t go away with any of the proposed solutions of pool or highest hit, or first hit.

It doesn't change the Melee is better than Ranged piece but I am not sure that is even a problem. Ranged has other intrensic bonuses that make up for it having a lesser damage.

AND the problem with the Ranger/Monk has nothing to do with Melee vs Ranged. It has EVERYTHING to do with 2 pucks = double +damage.

The simplest solution is usually the right one and in this case the simplest solution is to remove 2 pucks =2x damage bonus. The easiest way to do that is to limit bonus damage to one puck per turn.

At that point the choice to play Monk or Ranger is playstyle based, not top damage based.

2 pucks = more chances to hit vs 2 pucks = double damage output

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: It doesn't change the Melee is better than Ranged piece but I am not sure that is even a problem. Ranged has other intrensic bonuses that make up for it having a lesser damage.

AND the problem with the Ranger/Monk has nothing to do with Melee vs Ranged. It has EVERYTHING to do with 2 pucks = double +damage.

The simplest solution is usually the right one and in this case the simplest solution is to remove 2 pucks =2x damage bonus. The easiest way to do that is to limit bonus damage to one puck per turn.

At that point the choice to play Monk or Ranger is playstyle based, not top damage based.

2 pucks = more chances to hit vs 2 pucks = double damage output

Agreed 100%

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote: Curious to me why finese type melee folks use strength instead of dexterity as a too hit and damage modifier.

It was never added as a design potential for melee weapons and there are not enough +DEX items to make the damage viable on a ranged build.

Just curious if the numbers were run for those classes with two melee sliders what it would do. It would also allow uncoupling of the two melee sliders from those that just have one.

I think what Edwin was suggesting here is that monks and rangers, by virtue of their double attack, should be forced to use Dex to hit in melee rather than strength, while still using their strength modifier for damage.

I haven't done the math, but I suspect this would at least help bring the damage bonuses back into line, with all of the resultant benefits mentioned.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

edwin wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

edwin wrote: Curious to me why finese type melee folks use strength instead of dexterity as a too hit and damage modifier.

It was never added as a design potential for melee weapons and there are not enough +DEX items to make the damage viable on a ranged build.

Just curious if the numbers were run for those classes with two melee sliders what it would do. It would also allow uncoupling of the two melee sliders from those that just have one.

I think what Edwin was suggesting here is that monks and rangers, by virtue of their double attack, should be forced to use Dex to hit in melee rather than strength, while still using their strength modifier for damage.

I haven't done the math, but I suspect this would at least help bring the damage bonuses back into line, with all of the resultant benefits mentioned.

I agree this is likely the suggestion. If you look at the recent epic ranger build, switching to Dex based hit wouldn't dramatically change anything at bis levels. I believe it would strip around 25% off of the melee damage at rare and under builds.