TOPIC: Discussion of Class Selection Process

Bob Chasan wrote: So OBVIOUSLY you have given this a lot of thought and energy. Not directed at Incognito but the community as a whole, This thread has devolved into what sounds like a bunch of spoiled children not getting what they want and throwing a temper tantrum. IF you have a solution for the betterment of the ENTIRE community please share it. I'm sure TPTB would be greatly interested.

It's not surprising that players act like a bunch of spoiled children because there are lots of big spenders who are used to getting their way and gamers as a demographic tend to not have the best social skills as well as having a tendency to be stubborn about doing things their preferred way. Factor in that this will be a growing problem as the millennial "it's all about me!" generation gets more active in TD.

As @jedibcg mentioned, there isn't going to be a single solution that will solve all problems. And there will also not be a single solution that makes things better for EVERYONE. And even if there are excellent solutions Bob, you're making a big assumption that TPTB will be "greatly interested" in it. For years and years, there have been concerns about volunteer and DM quality. Many players (with Ed DeVaney taking the lead) have strongly advocated for some sort of feedback/evaluation system so that players can provide direct feedback on the DM's they had. Yet nothing ever gets implemented. Most players are just told to "talk to a Dungeon Coordinator if they have a problem" but a lot of players feel that after doing so, they aren't really being listened to.

So obviously signups are messy and for something with limited runs sign up is the best option. Is there another out there that I am missing????
Imagine the staff required or the online capabilities to allow players to claim their class before the convention.
Does this negatively impact new and casual players?
Do you have a better solution?

That's the entire purpose of this thread. To encourage discussion, generate solutions, and evaluate their feasibility.

There is an established policy and if followed mitigates the problem. If you have a better solution please share it. I coach quite a lot and so will put forth the policy as I understand it. Druegar, please correct me if I am wrong. (Never known to happen but there's always a first time)

The "established policy" has many flaws and isn't even properly executed most of the time.

- It doesn't address the problem of late arrivals trying to use their 3rd level perk. This is a problem that a lot of coaches have complained about.

- The website currently says that in the event of a conflict, *all* players of 3rd level should roll off and take turns choosing. Right now, most coaches simply have the involved players roll off and often they are supposed to take whatever classes are left.

- It doesn't address the problem of how to verify someone is 3rd+ level. Otherwise, everyone can just claim it (and say that they are "smakdown, just look at my XP level!").

- Not to mention that there is a real problem if player coaches are trying to pressure people or shame people into not utilizing the official procedure (which includes the 3rd+ level perk system).

NOT OFFICIAL POLICY - This entire discussion is essentially to mitigate unhappy players which most often happens when new players choose a class a more experienced player has chosen. In my time coaching, I have only Once seen two players not be able to work it out amicably, as adults, with little to no hurt feelings.

To recall an anecdote, the most contentious conflict I ever saw was back in 2014 WYC when two very experienced players both insisted on playing Druid. It got really ugly and messy....

Back to my point, I have heard of players contacting a coach when they had back to back runs to pull a particular class card for a certain run, if they have the correct wristband. (not endorsing simply reporting) What happens when the rest of the PUG shows up? If there isn't a rogue card in the stack of character cards, they don't feel like they are missing something. If it occurred and there were more experienced players who knew about the rogue card and asked specifically for that card, I would guess that the class would belong to them. The facts are: you aren't there to claim it so it goes to someone else.

Back to Official Policy: If you show up on time and no one else is there you are Certainly able to claim a character class, show your stats on the approved app, website, or excel spreadsheet then go do something else until you're supposed to go into the training room.

So if you arrive early and at the official start time, no one else is there, would you say it is okay for you to claim your preferred class and ask the player coach to fill in your stats because everyone else is late and missed their opportunity?

That's not actually official policy because official policy does NOT have a cutoff time, which is one of the things we are discussing/proposing.

TLDR: Be an adult, this is a game. It's not the end of the world if you don't get to play your desired character class once in a while. At Origins, a friend and I joined a group where classes had been chosen. He has played Druid for at least the last 10 years and in the last 6-7 hasn't missed a single skill check. I had additional tokens and the best remaining class available was Ranger. Guess what, he really enjoyed playing Ranger.
Hey Mikey - Try it, You might like it.

Wow, you sound really condescending telling people to "be an adult." The vast majority of TD players ARE adults, and a good number of non-adults playing shouldn't technically be allowed to do so.

Being an adult also means accepting alternative perspectives, viewpoints, and ideologies other than your own. And that means accepting that different people are going to have varying perspectives on what is a sufficient "player friendly attitude" and at what point you need to stop coddling newbies (or veterans or big buyers).

jedibcg wrote: My friends and I have a rule for the deception game "Are you a werewolf?" If you are unfamilar with the game it is a hidden role/deception game were players are eliminated from the game until one side wins. We call it rule 101. 101 states we don't eliminate new players in the first couple rounds because we want them to enjoy playing a bit so they continue to play. If there are no new players we don't eliminate someone who has just joined the game if the rest of us have been playing for awhile at that time.

Out of curiosity, do you also think that an experienced player should let a newer player (or a child) win in a game or competition? It's arguable whether parents should let their kids win or they should force the kid to actually earn the victory. ::shrugs::

I am NOT suggesting TD adopt this strategy. It is what I adopt though for my groups without realizing that I borrowed it from our other game. When I have brand new players playing with the group I let them pick first because they have had zero chance to play that class before. After that I work backwards giving those that have played the least the chance to pick first. I ALWAYS pick last. I do something similar in pug groups where I will pick last or as close to last as possible. 1 because I play a lot. 2 because I want to make sure we have a bard, or a cleric or a druid or whatever I feel will help the party the most that hasn't been chosen. Because I play a lot and have plenty of chances to play all sorts of classes. I know not everyone does get to play a lot and cannot adopt this strategy. If you only get to play 1 game then you are more likely going to have a class preference I think. If you have played multiple times then your care about a class is less likely.

I think there is a wide spectrum of okay behavior in PUG's with random people.

Being mean and being a jerk are bad.

But there's a a large range from neutral to helpful to overly helpful. People do TD for a variety of reasons, including going through the haunted house, fighting the monsters, and getting treasure. Not everyone is there to make new friends or to self-flagellate for the sake of newbie strangers. And that's okay.

@Brad Mortensen: Also note that my very first TD run actually WAS with a bunch of jerks, including a Cleric who would only heal his friends. I continued playing despite that.

@Mike Steele: No, locking things down when you start writing creates other problems. While I may start writing things down when I am coaching, it's mainly out of convenience and nothing is set in stone yet.

Incognito wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: So OBVIOUSLY you have given this a lot of thought and energy. Not directed at Incognito but the community as a whole, This thread has devolved into what sounds like a bunch of spoiled children not getting what they want and throwing a temper tantrum. IF you have a solution for the betterment of the ENTIRE community please share it. I'm sure TPTB would be greatly interested.

It's not surprising that players act like a bunch of spoiled children because there are lots of big spenders who are used to getting their way and gamers as a demographic tend to not have the best social skills as well as having a tendency to be stubborn about doing things their preferred way. Factor in that this will be a growing problem as the millennial "it's all about me!" generation gets more active in TD.

Given the early wave of us millennials are closer to 40 than 30, you've probably got the majority of millennials you're going to get. Heck, Gen Z already has 25 year olds in the bracket.

Should get off your lawn for pointing that out?

Incognito wrote: @Brad Mortensen: Also note that my very first TD run actually WAS with a bunch of jerks, including a Cleric who would only heal his friends. I continued playing despite that.

Wow. Sounds like TD was lucky you weren’t turned off. I’m pretty sure that if that was my first run it would have been my last. I’m have a low tolerance for jerks. I don’t often confront them, I usually just shun them and situations where I’m likely to run into them.

I remember this whole topic coming up a couple of years ago and I thought we’d agreed on the deadline system, but it apparently never got officially implemented. Maybe this time.

I read an old TD review that 2 players were one-shotting the monsters and telling everyone the answers to the puzzles. Needless to say the person said it ruined the experience for them.

Pulling rank sounds like something that would ruin the experience for others especially when they probably aren’t aware of that rule.

Incognito wrote:
Out of curiosity, do you also think that an experienced player should let a newer player (or a child) win in a game or competition? It's arguable whether parents should let their kids win or they should force the kid to actually earn the victory. ::shrugs::

Just to be clear I didn't say we let new people win, just we give them a you won't be eliminated for a few rounds because you are new. We feel removing a new person from a game in the first round is a terrible first experience with a game.

I cannot answer your question because I don't have enough data points. What is the goal of the experienced person? What is the age and temperament of the new player/child? What is the game being played.

I think there is a wide spectrum of okay behavior in PUG's with random people.

Being mean and being a jerk are bad.

But there's a a large range from neutral to helpful to overly helpful. People do TD for a variety of reasons, including going through the haunted house, fighting the monsters, and getting treasure. Not everyone is there to make new friends or to self-flagellate for the sake of newbie strangers. And that's okay.

agreed. Nor was I suggesting anyone should do so. I provided what I do and my logic behind what I do. Similarly how you provided how there is the common problem of more than one person wanting to play rogue in your pug games. What I do has no impact on what you do in your games. I am not asking anyone to change how they handle. There also was musing about how steadfast someone might be to a character class by how often they play.

You may think taking a character after someone else is self-flagellating to them. I think it is being a team player to grow the community. I am not saying you are wrong. I am not saying I am right. I am saying we have different views. And that is okay. As you said being a jerk and being mean are bad. I don't believe I ever said a 3rd level and greater picking a class before new person is being mean or being a jerk. I have said and stand by it. Anyone whining about not playing a particular class after spending thousands of dollars on tokens I have no sympathy for. If you spend that much money without knowing the system and/or how to work it then I just don't.

If we ever end up in a PUG together though I am going to request rogue and then see if you want to roll for each of the 3 treasures just because I think it would be funny.

Endgame wrote: Given the early wave of us millennials are closer to 40 than 30, you've probably got the majority of millennials you're going to get. Heck, Gen Z already has 25 year olds in the bracket.

Should get off your lawn for pointing that out?

Are you sure about that? Millennials should be 22 to 38, right? I count a lot more ages closer to 30 than 40. I don't know the birth numbers for each of those age brackets but don't sound right to me. Gen Z or Post-Millennials would be 1996 or 1997 meaning not of them should 25.

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote: Given the early wave of us millennials are closer to 40 than 30, you've probably got the majority of millennials you're going to get. Heck, Gen Z already has 25 year olds in the bracket.

Should get off your lawn for pointing that out?

Are you sure about that? Millennials should be 22 to 38, right? I count a lot more ages closer to 30 than 40. I don't know the birth numbers for each of those age brackets but don't sound right to me. Gen Z or Post-Millennials would be 1996 or 1997 meaning not of them should 25.

The start and end dates of each generation vary. My "I'm feeling lucky" search on gen z said 1995, which would put the oldest of gen Z at 24.

Not sure it has much bearing, but I'm guessing there are very few new Gen Xers, and millineals are past the mid point of adoption?

jedibcg wrote:

Endgame wrote: Given the early wave of us millennials are closer to 40 than 30, you've probably got the majority of millennials you're going to get. Heck, Gen Z already has 25 year olds in the bracket.

Should get off your lawn for pointing that out?

Are you sure about that? Millennials should be 22 to 38, right? I count a lot more ages closer to 30 than 40. I don't know the birth numbers for each of those age brackets but don't sound right to me. Gen Z or Post-Millennials would be 1996 or 1997 meaning not of them should 25.

He said "the early wave", not "all Millennials in general".

Incognito wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: So OBVIOUSLY you have given this a lot of thought and energy. Not directed at Incognito but the community as a whole, This thread has devolved into what sounds like a bunch of spoiled children not getting what they want and throwing a temper tantrum. IF you have a solution for the betterment of the ENTIRE community please share it. I'm sure TPTB would be greatly interested.

It's not surprising that players act like a bunch of spoiled children because there are lots of big spenders who are used to getting their way and gamers as a demographic tend to not have the best social skills as well as having a tendency to be stubborn about doing things their preferred way. Factor in that this will be a growing problem as the millennial "it's all about me!" generation gets more active in TD.

As @jedibcg mentioned, there isn't going to be a single solution that will solve all problems. And there will also not be a single solution that makes things better for EVERYONE. And even if there are excellent solutions Bob, you're making a big assumption that TPTB will be "greatly interested" in it. For years and years, there have been concerns about volunteer and DM quality. Many players (with Ed DeVaney taking the lead) have strongly advocated for some sort of feedback/evaluation system so that players can provide direct feedback on the DM's they had. Yet nothing ever gets implemented. Most players are just told to "talk to a Dungeon Coordinator if they have a problem" but a lot of players feel that after doing so, they aren't really being listened to.

So obviously signups are messy and for something with limited runs sign up is the best option. Is there another out there that I am missing????
Imagine the staff required or the online capabilities to allow players to claim their class before the convention.
Does this negatively impact new and casual players?
Do you have a better solution?

That's the entire purpose of this thread. To encourage discussion, generate solutions, and evaluate their feasibility.

There is an established policy and if followed mitigates the problem. If you have a better solution please share it. I coach quite a lot and so will put forth the policy as I understand it. Druegar, please correct me if I am wrong. (Never known to happen but there's always a first time)

The "established policy" has many flaws and isn't even properly executed most of the time.

- It doesn't address the problem of late arrivals trying to use their 3rd level perk. This is a problem that a lot of coaches have complained about.

- The website currently says that in the event of a conflict, *all* players of 3rd level should roll off and take turns choosing. Right now, most coaches simply have the involved players roll off and often they are supposed to take whatever classes are left.

- It doesn't address the problem of how to verify someone is 3rd+ level. Otherwise, everyone can just claim it (and say that they are "smakdown, just look at my XP level!").

- Not to mention that there is a real problem if player coaches are trying to pressure people or shame people into not utilizing the official procedure (which includes the 3rd+ level perk system).

NOT OFFICIAL POLICY - This entire discussion is essentially to mitigate unhappy players which most often happens when new players choose a class a more experienced player has chosen. In my time coaching, I have only Once seen two players not be able to work it out amicably, as adults, with little to no hurt feelings.

To recall an anecdote, the most contentious conflict I ever saw was back in 2014 WYC when two very experienced players both insisted on playing Druid. It got really ugly and messy....

Back to my point, I have heard of players contacting a coach when they had back to back runs to pull a particular class card for a certain run, if they have the correct wristband. (not endorsing simply reporting) What happens when the rest of the PUG shows up? If there isn't a rogue card in the stack of character cards, they don't feel like they are missing something. If it occurred and there were more experienced players who knew about the rogue card and asked specifically for that card, I would guess that the class would belong to them. The facts are: you aren't there to claim it so it goes to someone else.

Back to Official Policy: If you show up on time and no one else is there you are Certainly able to claim a character class, show your stats on the approved app, website, or excel spreadsheet then go do something else until you're supposed to go into the training room.

So if you arrive early and at the official start time, no one else is there, would you say it is okay for you to claim your preferred class and ask the player coach to fill in your stats because everyone else is late and missed their opportunity?

That's not actually official policy because official policy does NOT have a cutoff time, which is one of the things we are discussing/proposing.

TLDR: Be an adult, this is a game. It's not the end of the world if you don't get to play your desired character class once in a while. At Origins, a friend and I joined a group where classes had been chosen. He has played Druid for at least the last 10 years and in the last 6-7 hasn't missed a single skill check. I had additional tokens and the best remaining class available was Ranger. Guess what, he really enjoyed playing Ranger.
Hey Mikey - Try it, You might like it.

Wow, you sound really condescending telling people to "be an adult." The vast majority of TD players ARE adults, and a good number of non-adults playing shouldn't technically be allowed to do so.

Being an adult also means accepting alternative perspectives, viewpoints, and ideologies other than your own. And that means accepting that different people are going to have varying perspectives on what is a sufficient "player friendly attitude" and at what point you need to stop coddling newbies (or veterans or big buyers).

Work it out like adults is not condescending.

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote: My friends and I have a rule for the deception game "Are you a werewolf?" If you are unfamilar with the game it is a hidden role/deception game were players are eliminated from the game until one side wins. We call it rule 101. 101 states we don't eliminate new players in the first couple rounds because we want them to enjoy playing a bit so they continue to play. If there are no new players we don't eliminate someone who has just joined the game if the rest of us have been playing for awhile at that time.

Out of curiosity, do you also think that an experienced player should let a newer player (or a child) win in a game or competition? It's arguable whether parents should let their kids win or they should force the kid to actually earn the victory. ::shrugs::

I am NOT suggesting TD adopt this strategy. It is what I adopt though for my groups without realizing that I borrowed it from our other game. When I have brand new players playing with the group I let them pick first because they have had zero chance to play that class before. After that I work backwards giving those that have played the least the chance to pick first. I ALWAYS pick last. I do something similar in pug groups where I will pick last or as close to last as possible. 1 because I play a lot. 2 because I want to make sure we have a bard, or a cleric or a druid or whatever I feel will help the party the most that hasn't been chosen. Because I play a lot and have plenty of chances to play all sorts of classes. I know not everyone does get to play a lot and cannot adopt this strategy. If you only get to play 1 game then you are more likely going to have a class preference I think. If you have played multiple times then your care about a class is less likely.

I think there is a wide spectrum of okay behavior in PUG's with random people.

Being mean and being a jerk are bad.

But there's a a large range from neutral to helpful to overly helpful. People do TD for a variety of reasons, including going through the haunted house, fighting the monsters, and getting treasure. Not everyone is there to make new friends or to self-flagellate for the sake of newbie strangers. And that's okay.

@Brad Mortensen: Also note that my very first TD run actually WAS with a bunch of jerks, including a Cleric who would only heal his friends. I continued playing despite that.

@Mike Steele: No, locking things down when you start writing creates other problems. While I may start writing things down when I am coaching, it's mainly out of convenience and nothing is set in stone yet.

As a practical matter, you have to lock things down at some point to get the card filled out within the time frame. I would agree that you should not lock things down BEFORE the official start time. If I’m running ahead, I have used one of the scratch sheets for early arrivers knowing it could change once The official time has started.

dsypher (Luigi) wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: So sure, you can safely alienate 80% of newbies without harming TD’s future, if only you could predict who they are. So IMO I think it’s prudent to encourage and nurture everyone.

+infinity

By the same token though it's also not wise to create the attitude that new players are more valuable then returning players as the goal is to get new players to become returning players.