TOPIC: Discussion of Class Selection Process

Picc wrote: How do you account for the people who play once, then say something like "it was fun but meh it was probably just a one time thing" because I suspect that's the majority of people. Even if they have a great time they are just not going to be repeat customers.

I fully grant you we need a consistent supply of new players, I just also maintain that we probably have more of that then we need already, and thats not likely to change anytime soon. So focusing exclusively on new player experience (in some cases) at the expense of established player experience might not be the best use of our energy.

Only if the new players don't have such a bad experience that word gets out that this game is not for new players. Remember how we have to go away from stamps because some Vets were ruining it for other players.

If it were me I would be more focused on a casino like model, making sure that the whales are happy and that TD has a reputation for being the kind of event where you want to become a vet because they take care you. IMO that will do more to drive the revenue and improve the event for everyone in the long run anyway.

That fact is we need both. Shitting on one group for the sake of another group with eventually kill the game. I am not suggesting that Vets lose out on anything. I just want everyone to remember that we need the new people as well since they don't have a voice here.

As far as whales. Token purchasers are rewarded for their purchases. XP and level has nothing to do with token purchases. You can be playing from day 1 and never and bought a single token. These are not whales. They are long time players. If we want to start rewarding for ticket purchases then I for one would be okay for rewarding that. I have bought 40+ TD tickets at Gen Con since there have been 4 adventures there and 30 before data. That doesn't count any other cons where I have occasionally bought out runs.....lol.

What I'm taking from this thread thus far

Most have what I consider the right idea about class selection:
1. If you're joining a group with people you don't know, be flexible and don't push newer players around.
2. If you're late, take from what's left.

I would add this:
If joining a group that doesn't know one another, choose classes based on what is best to help the party succeed. I did a spur of the moment PUG (pick up game or group, your choice) with one other NM player early Friday of Origins. That group didn't have a Rogue, Cleric, Bard or Druid. Since they were new, we went Druid and Rogue (for the clues, and to show them the box). That may have been the 2nd most fun run I did all weekend (after the 8 token), because they were all happy, and were VERY into it.

I'm not particularly confrontational, so I have never pulled "level 3" rank on anyone for class, even when I only had a few tokens, best suited for a particular class.

I couldn't agree more that if one is geared for NM or EPIC, they can play any class on normal without even opening their 10 pack.

Please, please PLEASE, don't try to push new players onto HC just because your build is EPIC. They could have a terrible time.

I agree that we will lose people every year no matter what we do. I also agree that we hear about bad vs good much more because of the different ways the human mind processes things, and shared misery, etc.

I think that for every new player that has a great experience, they might also have a gaming group out there that could try TD as well. That can only help the game.

Picc wrote:

jedibcg wrote: actually if you are correct and it lots of new people that aren’t being retained then we do need to keep new players happy. we will always need to replace anyone that does not come back next year. though existing players can pick up the slack new players will always be need if last years new players don’t return.

If a new player has a bad experience on their first run they are less likely to ever play again than someone that has had multiple good experiences.

How do you account for the people who play once, then say something like "it was fun but meh it was probably just a one time thing" because I suspect that's the majority of people. Even if they have a great time they are just not going to be repeat customers.

It's a numbers game.

Since there is no way to know who will play again and who won't, and who might become a whale and who won't, you just try to create a situation where the largest number of players "convert" to regulars, and the largest number of regulars "convert" to whales.

It may be that the majority are of the first time players are of the: "it was fun but meh it was probably just a one time thing" sort - but that's irrelevant. Nothing you do will cause those players to come back.

What you're trying to do is take the "that was neat, maybe next year I'll do it again" population and tilt that "maybe" to "I should do it again" and away from "probably I won't do it again." You do this by giving all new players a good experience.

Matthew Hayward wrote:
It's a numbers game.

Since there is no way to know who will play again and who won't, and who might become a whale and who won't, you just try to create a situation where the largest number of players "convert" to regulars, and the largest number of regulars "convert" to whales.

It may be that the majority are of the first time players are of the: "it was fun but meh it was probably just a one time thing" sort - but that's irrelevant. Nothing you do will cause those players to come back.

What you're trying to do is take the "that was neat, maybe next year I'll do it again" population and tilt that "maybe" to "I should do it again" and away from "probably I won't do it again." You do this by giving all new players a good experience.

I have never agreed with a post by Matthew so much before...lol.

Its also good to remember that True Dungeon is now expanding into its 5th convention, and each new convention needs new players. Some existing player might be able to go to a new convention, but probably not the majority of them. So to support these new conventions, TD needs to grow not only its player base but even more its volunteer base.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: What I'm taking from this thread thus far

Most have what I consider the right idea about class selection:
1. If you're joining a group with people you don't know, be flexible and don't push newer players around.
2. If you're late, take from what's left.

I would add this:
If joining a group that doesn't know one another, choose classes based on what is best to help the party succeed. I did a spur of the moment PUG (pick up game or group, your choice) with one other NM player early Friday of Origins. That group didn't have a Rogue, Cleric, Bard or Druid. Since they were new, we went Druid and Rogue (for the clues, and to show them the box). That may have been the 2nd most fun run I did all weekend (after the 8 token), because they were all happy, and were VERY into it.

I'm not particularly confrontational, so I have never pulled "level 3" rank on anyone for class, even when I only had a few tokens, best suited for a particular class.

I couldn't agree more that if one is geared for NM or EPIC, they can play any class on normal without even opening their 10 pack.

Please, please PLEASE, don't try to push new players onto HC just because your build is EPIC. They could have a terrible time.

I agree that we will lose people every year no matter what we do. I also agree that we hear about bad vs good much more because of the different ways the human mind processes things, and shared misery, etc.

I think that for every new player that has a great experience, they might also have a gaming group out there that could try TD as well. That can only help the game.

+1

Picc wrote:

jedibcg wrote: actually if you are correct and it lots of new people that aren’t being retained then we do need to keep new players happy. we will always need to replace anyone that does not come back next year. though existing players can pick up the slack new players will always be need if last years new players don’t return.

If a new player has a bad experience on their first run they are less likely to ever play again than someone that has had multiple good experiences.

How do you account for the people who play once, then say something like "it was fun but meh it was probably just a one time thing" because I suspect that's the majority of people. Even if they have a great time they are just not going to be repeat customers.

I fully grant you we need a consistent supply of new players, I just also maintain that we probably have more of that then we need already, and thats not likely to change anytime soon. So focusing exclusively on new player experience (in some cases) at the expense of established player experience might not be the best use of our energy.

If it were me I would be more focused on a casino like model, making sure that the whales are happy and that TD has a reputation for being the kind of event where you want to become a vet because they take care you. IMO that will do more to drive the revenue and improve the event for everyone in the long run anyway.

jedibcg wrote:

Bob Chasan wrote: Please remember someone who has a bad experience is going to tell at least 10 people but someone who has a good time is only going to tell 1-2 people. A business statistic is that every business loses 20% of their customers every year and even if TD has superior retention powers and only loses 10% they still need to replace those hard core tokenholics that move on for any reason.

Or replace those new people. Again it is easier to keep a hard core tokenholic happy if they have 1 bad experience that a new person whose only experience is bad. If it is a new person that leave or a hard core tokenholic they need to be replaced. That replacement is most likely going to be a new person.

Ya, but we would have to loose and replace a lot of one or two run per year players to equal the revenue hit we would take loosing a single patron level buyer. And doing stuff like asking them to give up the classes they've spent thousands building for has a really good chance of making them reconsider their purchases.

I really have a problem with using the excuse that someone has spent thousands of dollars in building a singular class. Vet know the deal. They know they need to get there early. If a vet shows up late and steals a character class from someone that is just going to be a bad situation. If they’re there early enough that they can take the card before anybody looks at it then there’s never an issue. I understand some people do back to back runs and that’s fine let the coach know ahead of time so that she can pull the card. If playing a singular class is so important to someone that they will spend thousands of dollars on that class it should be important enough for them to show up early to make sure that they get that class.

If you are buying thousands of dollars to play one class there is an easy fix. BUY OUT A RUN or join a forum organized run where you know what class is available. If you show up to a pug group and whine about how because you spend more money on tokens than someone else so you should get your pick I have ZERO sympathy for you.

This is completely separate from level and XP.

jedibcg wrote: If you show up to a pug group and whine I have ZERO sympathy for you.

This is completely separate from level and XP.

I think this is enough for me.....

jedibcg wrote: If you are buying thousands of dollars to play one class there is an easy fix. BUY OUT A RUN

Though I absolutely agree in general, that fix may not be so easy at Gen Con.

jedibcg wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
It's a numbers game.

Since there is no way to know who will play again and who won't, and who might become a whale and who won't, you just try to create a situation where the largest number of players "convert" to regulars, and the largest number of regulars "convert" to whales.

It may be that the majority are of the first time players are of the: "it was fun but meh it was probably just a one time thing" sort - but that's irrelevant. Nothing you do will cause those players to come back.

What you're trying to do is take the "that was neat, maybe next year I'll do it again" population and tilt that "maybe" to "I should do it again" and away from "probably I won't do it again." You do this by giving all new players a good experience.

I have never agreed with a post by Matthew so much before...lol.

I agree also, at $80 per ticket we want to do everything we can to drive player retention and hopefully create a new batch of die hard fans every year.

So, this origins goes down for me as the most times being bumped from my primary class ever. It never came to a roll or pulling rank, I simply did what most do and let them play it.

For me the runs are fun so the class selection isn't as important but where I do seem to care is when it come to grind or horde. Token selection and character optimization is more important in that setting in my opinion.

Having been a coach for a long time I really haven't seen too many issues or people pulling rank. Sure it comes up but I don't think it's common enough to warrant drastic changes. I hear far more disgruntled players talking about vets farming token pulls then players not getting the class they want.

As a grind coach I most often find prepared players and very little arguments. What does come up is players that got the run and expected a full run, not just solid combat. This exact thing happened at orgins. Thankfully I talked to them and they dropped out with enough time to get a refund otherwise they would have been super pissed I'm certain.

The suggestion I'd make is focus on hoard. It's chaotic with 20 people. I'd be ok with keeping it more exclusive than the others.

In closing I'd just say I guess I'm glad bard has gotten popular, when I first started playing i chose it because it was the least popular class. LOL