TOPIC: Ghosting proposal for smaller conventions

kurtreznor wrote:

Steve wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: The solution might be to also disallow ghosts at GENCON to get treasure chips and completion tokens. I agree it is counter productive to allow ghosting at GENCON when those spots would certainly be filled by actual people if ghosting weren't allowed.

The more I think about it the more I think we have it all backwards and you might be right. Disallow ghosting at GenCon, or at least make it not profitable. But conversely allow ghosting everywhere else but make sure people can't take advantage (e.g. limit treasure draws to 10 per ghost).

I'm sure some will be disappointed, but on the other hand if I can get all of the crazy ideas out of my system at other conventions then perhaps I don't need to ghost at GenCon.

Well, I think you probably think I'm only half right. I still don't think Ghosts should get loot at smaller conventions, I just also think that should be extended to GENCON.

Here is my only objection to this :

I buy at least two full runs for new players each year. I pay for everything. I keep everything.

If a new player decides to bail at the last minute (and I can't find someone to quickly back fill the slot) I'm out $62 for the ticket, 18 treasure, a 10-pack, a completion token, and the party is out a character.

I don't really care if that is happening at GenCon, or Origins, or GameHole .. I'm still out that cash outlay with no return simply because someone flaked.

GenCon is *SUPER* busy, and it is easy to get lost or lose track of time. A new attendee might not understand how quickly you can lose control of the tiger that is GenCon - and is more likely to miss an adventure than at Origins.

My preference is to fill up my runs. This only happened to me once this year .. and I was able to ghost the character. And I know i'm not 'normal' in that I run full on noobie runs out of my own pocket - so I don't expect rules to be patterned around me. I totally agree with the spirit of the no-ghosting stuff .. I can just see how this might bite me.

It isnt just new players that no-show, sometimes a friend will fail to show or cancel the day before.

This year's GC had another interesting twist. I heard from a couple of different TD regulars upset with friends that they had bought TD tickets for. Those friends hadn't pre-ordered GC badges, so couldn't get into the con to get to their run.

Harlax wrote: Ghosting was limited to a certain extent at GenCon this year.

When I suggested the rule be relaxed at smaller cons to allow one ghost per run to account for a potential no show Jeff responded with a firm "No." Too much potential for gaming the system was the rationale.

Back to my original argument. If we limit the amount of treasure draws a ghost can get (e.g. 10 draws max) then the profit potential is significantly reduced.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Back to my original argument. If we limit the amount of treasure draws a ghost can get (e.g. 10 draws max) then the profit potential is significantly reduced.

Or address the root of the problem and just stop spawning new TEs

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Back to my original argument. If we limit the amount of treasure draws a ghost can get (e.g. 10 draws max) then the profit potential is significantly reduced.

Or just stop spawning TEs

It seems the ship has sailed on that one. Those TEs spawn like bunnies.

Similar conversation was brought up last year.

I purchase - all runs are with newbies, people from my group, volunteers, or friends that could not get a run. I have stated last year that ghosting should be stopped and many here did not want that because they wanted the treasure tokens from the runs. Now there are new cons with TD with no ghosting rule seems to be causing problems with those that want treasure tokens.

So my solution is status quo. Leave it is how it is now at GENCON.

For other cons I agree you purchase your ticket - one per customer - show up and at start time the FIRST person to show up at the START time and turn their ticket it should be given the option to purchase the remaining tickets as GHOST with full treasure. (i.e., if you show up two hours prior and do not come back and stand inline at start time you do not get the first right of refusal of ghosting). This will ensure that new players have had the opportunity to purchase tickets and at the same time if two players that want to purchase the know the rules. Or work something out about splitting the treasure token pulls.

TD will not "lose" money on the runs and those that want treasure tokens can still get their full treasure tokens.

Kaledor wrote: Similar conversation was brought up last year.

I purchase - all runs are with newbies, people from my group, volunteers, or friends that could not get a run. I have stated last year that ghosting should be stopped and many here did not want that because they wanted the treasure tokens from the runs. Now there are new cons with TD with no ghosting rule seems to be causing problems with those that want treasure tokens.

So my solution is status quo. Leave it is how it is now at GENCON.

For other cons I agree you purchase your ticket - one per customer - show up and at start time the FIRST person to show up at the START time and turn their ticket it should be given the option to purchase the remaining tickets as GHOST with full treasure. (i.e., if you show up two hours prior and do not come back and stand inline at start time you do not get the first right of refusal of ghosting). This will ensure that new players have had the opportunity to purchase tickets and at the same time if two players that want to purchase the know the rules. Or work something out about splitting the treasure token pulls.

TD will not "lose" money on the runs and those that want treasure tokens can still get their full treasure tokens.

And anyone found to be gaming the system by turning in tickets too late to be resold, or conspiring to do so with another player, is ejected from the event, no refund, and a volunteer is assigned to follow them around the rest of the convention banging a small gong and intoning "SHAME!!!" every few steps.

Brad Mortensen wrote: And anyone found to be gaming the system by turning in tickets too late to be resold, or conspiring to do so with another player, is ejected from the event, no refund, and a volunteer is assigned to follow them around the rest of the convention banging a small gong and intoning "SHAME!!!" every few steps.

This! ^^^

Druegar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: And anyone found to be gaming the system by turning in tickets too late to be resold, or conspiring to do so with another player, is ejected from the event, no refund, and a volunteer is assigned to follow them around the rest of the convention banging a small gong and intoning "SHAME!!!" every few steps.

This! ^^^

The fact that this possibility of gaming the system exists could be reason not to try this approach. It would be tough to detect someone working with a friend to pull this off.

Mike Steele wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: And anyone found to be gaming the system by turning in tickets too late to be resold, or conspiring to do so with another player, is ejected from the event, no refund, and a volunteer is assigned to follow them around the rest of the convention banging a small gong and intoning "SHAME!!!" every few steps.

This! ^^^

The fact that this possibility of gaming the system exists could be reason not to try this approach. It would be tough to detect someone working with a friend to pull this off.

That's a pretty good summary of Jeff's response to my very modest suggestion of one ghost per party.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote: First year at Origins is hardly enough data to suggest opening up ghosting rules.

I thought the entire point of having other con options was to make it more available to new players in different markets, who maybe can't afford the trip to Gen Con. Now you want to take away that option before it has had a chance to grow?

It may take three or four years for TD to sell out at the smaller conventions as the markets adjust. Word of mouth travels. People remember the cool times they had playing the year before, and start looping their friends into it. While they are cheaper than Gen Con runs, they are still likely the highest priced event at these other cons, and the usual attending crowd has to learn whether or not it is worth their investment. The communities at these cons are only in their initial growth stages. Give them time, for the love of Pete.

I wouldn't start calling for changes to ghosting rules at the other cons until after they see five years of activity. By then there should be enough trending data to suggest if TD needs to fill out runs with players who have deep pockets.

I guess I don't understand the logic. You are saying that we should continue to run smaller conventions with unsold tickets for a few years in the hope that eventually those tickets will fill up with real players, all the while losing revenue for True Dungeon.

While simultaneously allowing unlimited ghosting at GenCon when tickets are guaranteed to sell out and almost certainly every ghost slot would have been taken by an actual player?

I am saying sacrifice a little short term gain for the long term goal.

If Ghosting rules change, heavy treasure investors buy up all the runs, and we're back to the problem we had at Gen Con prior to this year with whole runs going to a handful of players and a lot of new players being shut out of the process.

It's about market growth. TD stands to make a lot more in the long run by keeping runs new player friendly for now. New communities need the room to grow and the pleasant feeling of there being runs available instead of racing a vet to get one spot or being completely out of luck.

I expect next year's Gen Con will not be as crazy as this year was. It was the 50th con, TD saw Patrick Rothfuss' fans wanting to see the world brought to life, plus the usual Gen Con TD community which has had 15 years to grow into what it is.

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote: First year at Origins is hardly enough data to suggest opening up ghosting rules.

I thought the entire point of having other con options was to make it more available to new players in different markets, who maybe can't afford the trip to Gen Con. Now you want to take away that option before it has had a chance to grow?

It may take three or four years for TD to sell out at the smaller conventions as the markets adjust. Word of mouth travels. People remember the cool times they had playing the year before, and start looping their friends into it. While they are cheaper than Gen Con runs, they are still likely the highest priced event at these other cons, and the usual attending crowd has to learn whether or not it is worth their investment. The communities at these cons are only in their initial growth stages. Give them time, for the love of Pete.

I wouldn't start calling for changes to ghosting rules at the other cons until after they see five years of activity. By then there should be enough trending data to suggest if TD needs to fill out runs with players who have deep pockets.

I guess I don't understand the logic. You are saying that we should continue to run smaller conventions with unsold tickets for a few years in the hope that eventually those tickets will fill up with real players, all the while losing revenue for True Dungeon.

While simultaneously allowing unlimited ghosting at GenCon when tickets are guaranteed to sell out and almost certainly every ghost slot would have been taken by an actual player?

I am saying sacrifice a little short term gain for the long term goal.

If Ghosting rules change, heavy treasure investors buy up all the runs, and we're back to the problem we had at Gen Con prior to this year with whole runs going to a handful of players and a lot of new players being shut out of the process.

It's about market growth. TD stands to make a lot more in the long run by keeping runs new player friendly for now. New communities need the room to grow and the pleasant feeling of there being runs available instead of racing a vet to get one spot or being completely out of luck.

I expect next year's Gen Con will not be as crazy as this year was. It was the 50th con, TD saw Patrick Rothfuss' fans wanting to see the world brought to life, plus the usual Gen Con TD community which has had 15 years to grow into what it is.

I actually think GENCON will be just as crazy next year. The attendance numbers for sellout weren't much higher than last year, I'll bet we hit those numbers again. Maybe even sooner.

Mike Steele wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote: First year at Origins is hardly enough data to suggest opening up ghosting rules.

I thought the entire point of having other con options was to make it more available to new players in different markets, who maybe can't afford the trip to Gen Con. Now you want to take away that option before it has had a chance to grow?

It may take three or four years for TD to sell out at the smaller conventions as the markets adjust. Word of mouth travels. People remember the cool times they had playing the year before, and start looping their friends into it. While they are cheaper than Gen Con runs, they are still likely the highest priced event at these other cons, and the usual attending crowd has to learn whether or not it is worth their investment. The communities at these cons are only in their initial growth stages. Give them time, for the love of Pete.

I wouldn't start calling for changes to ghosting rules at the other cons until after they see five years of activity. By then there should be enough trending data to suggest if TD needs to fill out runs with players who have deep pockets.

I guess I don't understand the logic. You are saying that we should continue to run smaller conventions with unsold tickets for a few years in the hope that eventually those tickets will fill up with real players, all the while losing revenue for True Dungeon.

While simultaneously allowing unlimited ghosting at GenCon when tickets are guaranteed to sell out and almost certainly every ghost slot would have been taken by an actual player?

I am saying sacrifice a little short term gain for the long term goal.

If Ghosting rules change, heavy treasure investors buy up all the runs, and we're back to the problem we had at Gen Con prior to this year with whole runs going to a handful of players and a lot of new players being shut out of the process.

It's about market growth. TD stands to make a lot more in the long run by keeping runs new player friendly for now. New communities need the room to grow and the pleasant feeling of there being runs available instead of racing a vet to get one spot or being completely out of luck.

I expect next year's Gen Con will not be as crazy as this year was. It was the 50th con, TD saw Patrick Rothfuss' fans wanting to see the world brought to life, plus the usual Gen Con TD community which has had 15 years to grow into what it is.

I actually think GENCON will be just as crazy next year. The attendance numbers for sellout weren't much higher than last year, I'll bet we hit those numbers again. Maybe even sooner.

I'll certainly be encouraging my group to buy badges on day 1.