TOPIC: Ghosting proposal for smaller conventions

Picc wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote: General tickets haven't gone on sale for GHC yet. I know if I was doing GHC for anything besides TD I would want to know what else I get before booking TD tickets.

I thought they had. I haven't been to GHC before; when do general tickets go on sale?

I need to figure out if I'm volunteering because I need to figure out if I need to buy a badge...

If your volunteering odds are your going to have a tough time getting runs. Assuming its the same as last year they only had one shift so coaches could only follow the last group in, and room GM could be in the first run until they got to their rooms. Its probably the reason I'm not going to volunteer GHC this year.

Tentatively I'll be volunteering as a Grind DM, so we'll probably have some other options compared to some other volunteers. But we'll see.

jedibcg wrote: General tickets haven't gone on sale for GHC yet. I know if I was doing GHC for anything besides TD I would want to know what else I get before booking TD tickets.

This is exactly the position I'm in.

First year at Origins is hardly enough data to suggest opening up ghosting rules.

I thought the entire point of having other con options was to make it more available to new players in different markets, who maybe can't afford the trip to Gen Con. Now you want to take away that option before it has had a chance to grow?

It may take three or four years for TD to sell out at the smaller conventions as the markets adjust. Word of mouth travels. People remember the cool times they had playing the year before, and start looping their friends into it. While they are cheaper than Gen Con runs, they are still likely the highest priced event at these other cons, and the usual attending crowd has to learn whether or not it is worth their investment. The communities at these cons are only in their initial growth stages. Give them time, for the love of Pete.

I wouldn't start calling for changes to ghosting rules at the other cons until after they see five years of activity. By then there should be enough trending data to suggest if TD needs to fill out runs with players who have deep pockets.

Hawk Fingle wrote: First year at Origins is hardly enough data to suggest opening up ghosting rules.

I thought the entire point of having other con options was to make it more available to new players in different markets, who maybe can't afford the trip to Gen Con. Now you want to take away that option before it has had a chance to grow?

It may take three or four years for TD to sell out at the smaller conventions as the markets adjust. Word of mouth travels. People remember the cool times they had playing the year before, and start looping their friends into it. While they are cheaper than Gen Con runs, they are still likely the highest priced event at these other cons, and the usual attending crowd has to learn whether or not it is worth their investment. The communities at these cons are only in their initial growth stages. Give them time, for the love of Pete.

I wouldn't start calling for changes to ghosting rules at the other cons until after they see five years of activity. By then there should be enough trending data to suggest if TD needs to fill out runs with players who have deep pockets.

I guess I don't understand the logic. You are saying that we should continue to run smaller conventions with unsold tickets for a few years in the hope that eventually those tickets will fill up with real players, all the while losing revenue for True Dungeon.

While simultaneously allowing unlimited ghosting at GenCon when tickets are guaranteed to sell out and almost certainly every ghost slot would have been taken by an actual player?

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote: First year at Origins is hardly enough data to suggest opening up ghosting rules.

I thought the entire point of having other con options was to make it more available to new players in different markets, who maybe can't afford the trip to Gen Con. Now you want to take away that option before it has had a chance to grow?

It may take three or four years for TD to sell out at the smaller conventions as the markets adjust. Word of mouth travels. People remember the cool times they had playing the year before, and start looping their friends into it. While they are cheaper than Gen Con runs, they are still likely the highest priced event at these other cons, and the usual attending crowd has to learn whether or not it is worth their investment. The communities at these cons are only in their initial growth stages. Give them time, for the love of Pete.

I wouldn't start calling for changes to ghosting rules at the other cons until after they see five years of activity. By then there should be enough trending data to suggest if TD needs to fill out runs with players who have deep pockets.

I guess I don't understand the logic. You are saying that we should continue to run smaller conventions with unsold tickets for a few years in the hope that eventually those tickets will fill up with real players, all the while losing revenue for True Dungeon.

While simultaneously allowing unlimited ghosting at GenCon when tickets are guaranteed to sell out and almost certainly every ghost slot would have been taken by an actual player?

The solution might be to also disallow ghosts at GENCON to get treasure chips and completion tokens. I agree it is counter productive to allow ghosting at GENCON when those spots would certainly be filled by actual people if ghosting weren't allowed.

Here's a thought: keep small con ghosting rules the same for presokd tickets, but if there are unsold tickets at the printed time, allow the players who showed up to buy and ghost them.

It maximizes the chances for newbies to play, but doesn't leave any money at the table.

Now here's the way you can game it: buy ten tix, return nine at the last minute, then buy them back in the coaching room. But since I don't imagine it's very hard to detect that sort of behavior, what with the person's name being tied to the tix, a suitable sanction can be levied.

Mike Steele wrote: The solution might be to also disallow ghosts at GENCON to get treasure chips and completion tokens. I agree it is counter productive to allow ghosting at GENCON when those spots would certainly be filled by actual people if ghosting weren't allowed.

The more I think about it the more I think we have it all backwards and you might be right. Disallow ghosting at GenCon, or at least make it not profitable. But conversely allow ghosting everywhere else but make sure people can't take advantage (e.g. limit treasure draws to 10 per ghost).

I'm sure some will be disappointed, but on the other hand if I can get all of the crazy ideas out of my system at other conventions then perhaps I don't need to ghost at GenCon.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: The solution might be to also disallow ghosts at GENCON to get treasure chips and completion tokens. I agree it is counter productive to allow ghosting at GENCON when those spots would certainly be filled by actual people if ghosting weren't allowed.

The more I think about it the more I think we have it all backwards and you might be right. Disallow ghosting at GenCon, or at least make it not profitable. But conversely allow ghosting everywhere else but make sure people can't take advantage (e.g. limit treasure draws to 10 per ghost).

I'm sure some will be disappointed, but on the other hand if I can get all of the crazy ideas out of my system at other conventions then perhaps I don't need to ghost at GenCon.

Well, I think you probably think I'm only half right. I still don't think Ghosts should get loot at smaller conventions, I just also think that should be extended to GENCON.

It depends on our goals.

Short Term
Most return for TD

Long Term
Expand TD player base
Allow players to do alternative runs that they prefer (5man, NM difficulty, etc..)

I would say that anything that allows a ticket to be sold is good for TD. Toward that end, allowing people to ghost unsold tickets only (not returned tickets) would seem to help TD in the short term, while helping more people get tickets.

As for ghosting at GC or not, I could go either way.

Also, if we were to limit a Ghost's treasure, that would certainly allow for less issues at all cons.

Mike Steele wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: The solution might be to also disallow ghosts at GENCON to get treasure chips and completion tokens. I agree it is counter productive to allow ghosting at GENCON when those spots would certainly be filled by actual people if ghosting weren't allowed.

The more I think about it the more I think we have it all backwards and you might be right. Disallow ghosting at GenCon, or at least make it not profitable. But conversely allow ghosting everywhere else but make sure people can't take advantage (e.g. limit treasure draws to 10 per ghost).

I'm sure some will be disappointed, but on the other hand if I can get all of the crazy ideas out of my system at other conventions then perhaps I don't need to ghost at GenCon.

Well, I think you probably think I'm only half right. I still don't think Ghosts should get loot at smaller conventions, I just also think that should be extended to GENCON.

Here is my only objection to this :

I buy at least two full runs for new players each year. I pay for everything. I keep everything.

If a new player decides to bail at the last minute (and I can't find someone to quickly back fill the slot) I'm out $62 for the ticket, 18 treasure, a 10-pack, a completion token, and the party is out a character.

I don't really care if that is happening at GenCon, or Origins, or GameHole .. I'm still out that cash outlay with no return simply because someone flaked.

GenCon is *SUPER* busy, and it is easy to get lost or lose track of time. A new attendee might not understand how quickly you can lose control of the tiger that is GenCon - and is more likely to miss an adventure than at Origins.

My preference is to fill up my runs. This only happened to me once this year .. and I was able to ghost the character. And I know i'm not 'normal' in that I run full on noobie runs out of my own pocket - so I don't expect rules to be patterned around me. I totally agree with the spirit of the no-ghosting stuff .. I can just see how this might bite me.

Steve wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: The solution might be to also disallow ghosts at GENCON to get treasure chips and completion tokens. I agree it is counter productive to allow ghosting at GENCON when those spots would certainly be filled by actual people if ghosting weren't allowed.

The more I think about it the more I think we have it all backwards and you might be right. Disallow ghosting at GenCon, or at least make it not profitable. But conversely allow ghosting everywhere else but make sure people can't take advantage (e.g. limit treasure draws to 10 per ghost).

I'm sure some will be disappointed, but on the other hand if I can get all of the crazy ideas out of my system at other conventions then perhaps I don't need to ghost at GenCon.

Well, I think you probably think I'm only half right. I still don't think Ghosts should get loot at smaller conventions, I just also think that should be extended to GENCON.

Here is my only objection to this :

I buy at least two full runs for new players each year. I pay for everything. I keep everything.

If a new player decides to bail at the last minute (and I can't find someone to quickly back fill the slot) I'm out $62 for the ticket, 18 treasure, a 10-pack, a completion token, and the party is out a character.

I don't really care if that is happening at GenCon, or Origins, or GameHole .. I'm still out that cash outlay with no return simply because someone flaked.

GenCon is *SUPER* busy, and it is easy to get lost or lose track of time. A new attendee might not understand how quickly you can lose control of the tiger that is GenCon - and is more likely to miss an adventure than at Origins.

My preference is to fill up my runs. This only happened to me once this year .. and I was able to ghost the character. And I know i'm not 'normal' in that I run full on noobie runs out of my own pocket - so I don't expect rules to be patterned around me. I totally agree with the spirit of the no-ghosting stuff .. I can just see how this might bite me.

It isnt just new players that no-show, sometimes a friend will fail to show or cancel the day before.

Ghosting was limited to a certain extent at GenCon this year.

When I suggested the rule be relaxed at smaller cons to allow one ghost per run to account for a potential no show Jeff responded with a firm "No." Too much potential for gaming the system was the rationale.