TOPIC: Missed GenCon, Game Hole Con exp for 2016?

Brad Mortensen wrote: Sargonnax, since you bring up cost:

Tickets at GenCon are at least 40% more expensive than the alt cons. The production values and treasure is the same.

The fact that you don't get player XP there is, IMO, a small trade off for the huge discount. For the casual player, anyway.

If XP is ever awarded for WYC and GHC it should be similarly discounted. Anyone who has played for a few years will know most of the puzzles in a retro dungeon. This year at WYC 8 of the 10 party members in my first run could have done the first puzzle in under a minute had we been willing to spoil it for the other 2.

There was a big flap last year on some parts of the Internet alleging that TD as a "pay to win" event. Without a meaningful XP cap, the level system would be vulnerable to that charge.

Cavor wrote: Whatever is decided, any system that has a player attend for several years at an alt con and be level zero is incredibly stupid.

There may be behind the scenes reasons for this that we don't know.

TD has a contract with GenCon. We don't know much about it, but we do know it places some restrictions on what TD can do outside GenCon.

Your "stupid" might be someone else's contractual obligation.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Just wondering if those of us who had to miss GenCon this year might be able to run the 2 retro dungeons at GHC and get the yearly exp for those 2 instead of the 2 missed at GenCon?

I guess this would open the door to "I never did some of the earlier dungeons. I I go to do a retro Dungeon, can I get the xp for it as I would be 'putting in the time' that I was not able to attend earlier on"... spiel

I like this.
That is always my argument when people want to reprint tokens

+1

Aaron Hydrick wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Just wondering if those of us who had to miss GenCon this year might be able to run the 2 retro dungeons at GHC and get the yearly exp for those 2 instead of the 2 missed at GenCon?

I guess this would open the door to "I never did some of the earlier dungeons. I I go to do a retro Dungeon, can I get the xp for it as I would be 'putting in the time' that I was not able to attend earlier on"... spiel

I like this.
That is always my argument when people want to reprint tokens

+1

-1

Aaron Hydrick wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Just wondering if those of us who had to miss GenCon this year might be able to run the 2 retro dungeons at GHC and get the yearly exp for those 2 instead of the 2 missed at GenCon?

I guess this would open the door to "I never did some of the earlier dungeons. I I go to do a retro Dungeon, can I get the xp for it as I would be 'putting in the time' that I was not able to attend earlier on"... spiel

I like this.
That is always my argument when people want to reprint tokens

+1

... with the stipulation that if it ever became available it would be advertised and published well enough in advance to allow planning to attend the event...

Aaron Hydrick wrote:

Aaron Hydrick wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Lordoftherealm wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: Just wondering if those of us who had to miss GenCon this year might be able to run the 2 retro dungeons at GHC and get the yearly exp for those 2 instead of the 2 missed at GenCon?

I guess this would open the door to "I never did some of the earlier dungeons. I I go to do a retro Dungeon, can I get the xp for it as I would be 'putting in the time' that I was not able to attend earlier on"... spiel

I like this.
That is always my argument when people want to reprint tokens

+1

... with the stipulation that if it ever became available it would be advertised and published well enough in advance to allow planning to attend the event...

I'm cool with eventually allowing XP for these events, now that they are getting enough tickets that everyone that wants one should be able to get one. I think the model of taking your best XP from all the conventions, max 4000 per year, makes sense, like was done with GENCON Indy and SoCal, or GENCON Indy and True Realm. I'm just very much opposed to doing something like having a Retro 2004 Dungeon and giving XP as if you'd actually ran the 2004 Dungeon instead of XP for a current year Dungeon. That may all be a moot point though, as I don't know if they will resurrect the Retro Dungeons or not.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Cavor wrote: Ah, forum games, the last refuge of the narcissistic idiot.

I don't know what is sadder, the fact that some one did that or the fact that they care too much to do that.

which post are you talking about

The obvious one.

Harlax wrote:

Cavor wrote: Whatever is decided, any system that has a player attend for several years at an alt con and be level zero is incredibly stupid.

There may be behind the scenes reasons for this that we don't know.

TD has a contract with GenCon. We don't know much about it, but we do know it places some restrictions on what TD can do outside GenCon.

Your "stupid" might be someone else's contractual obligation.

It’s possible that an XP limitation is in the contract with Gencon, but highly unlikely.

I think it’s better to debate specifics, so here is what I would do:

• Raise the yearly XP cap to 5k.
• Keep the current XP rules for Gencon, including the 4k cap.
• Award 1k per alt con dungeon regardless of difficulty level.

This encourages people to attend the alt cons and allows people who do not attend Gencon to earn xp.

The initial no XP for WYC was implemented because it was an invitation only event, that has changed. There will be people that only run TD at an alt con and they should have the opportunity to earn XP.

Cavor wrote: I think it’s better to debate specifics, so here is what I would do:

• Raise the yearly XP cap to 5k.
• Keep the current XP rules for Gencon, including the 4k cap.
• Award 1k per alt con dungeon regardless of difficulty level.

This encourages people to attend the alt cons and allows people who do not attend Gencon to earn xp.

The initial no XP for WYC was implemented because it was an invitation only event, that has changed. There will be people that only run TD at an alt con and they should have the opportunity to earn XP.

While I like this proposal, I'm betting a number of people will poke holes in it.

I will add a couple of additional comments. I've been on the fence about WYC the past couple of years and in each case decided the cost was better spent elsewhere. The opportunity for more XP would absolutely have changed my decision. XP is not even in my top five priority list for TD, but I do care about it. Also, I have friends planning to run TD at GHC. They're looking forward to it, but were very disappointed when I explained there is no XP for those runs. They're still coming, but my point is that while XP means nothing to some people, it is meaningful to others and is factor in people's decisions on whether they play or travel.

Cavor wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Cavor wrote: Whatever is decided, any system that has a player attend for several years at an alt con and be level zero is incredibly stupid.

There may be behind the scenes reasons for this that we don't know.

TD has a contract with GenCon. We don't know much about it, but we do know it places some restrictions on what TD can do outside GenCon.

Your "stupid" might be someone else's contractual obligation.

It’s possible that an XP limitation is in the contract with Gencon, but highly unlikely.

The contract probably wouldn't specify XP explicitly.

However, it likely discusses what sort of "exclusive" features and benefits should be reserved only for GenCon and what is allowed at other cons.

Cavor wrote: I think it’s better to debate specifics, so here is what I would do:

• Raise the yearly XP cap to 5k.
• Keep the current XP rules for Gencon, including the 4k cap.
• Award 1k per alt con dungeon regardless of difficulty level.

This encourages people to attend the alt cons and allows people who do not attend Gencon to earn xp.

The initial no XP for WYC was implemented because it was an invitation only event, that has changed. There will be people that only run TD at an alt con and they should have the opportunity to earn XP.

I think this is a good starting point for discussion. Better than name calling...

I might go with 500 for normal and 1000 for hardcore/nightmare.

I do think one outcome of a system like this will be increased XP to gain levels. Take a new player who is running with a group that can provide gear to make the group hardcore capable. Like mine. All my son's friends are from Wisconsin. So a second con is easy. They could be 5th level in just two years.

As for GenCon, whether or not there are contractual reasons, there might well be business reasons. GHC and WYC combined are dwarfed by GenCon ticket sales.

It's fruitless to speculate about contractual or business reasons for the XP system, Jeff is aware of those and will modulate accordingly.


As players I think it is fruitful to put forward a system we like - with the understanding that it might not be possible for contractual or business reasons.


I don't very strong arguments for denying full XP to non Gen Con events. I do see good arguments for an annual XP cap.

Why wouldn't WYC/GHC offer full XP?

Possible reason 1: It's not a new dungeon.

This is irrelevant, your Gen Con XP is not predicated on it being the first time you've run the dungeon - it's the furthest room reached alive at your difficulty. Do it on the first, the fifth, or the 10th run.

Possible reason 2: Gen Con is more expensive.

This is a non sequitur. Why should the ticket price of the event have anything to do with the XP, from the players perspective? Do we ramp up Gen Con XP each year when the ticket price increases?

If this is one of those areas where it's for the good of the business, why don't we let Jeff decide that, rather than preemptively assuming we know what drives the behavior that's good for True Adventures LLC and asking for that.


With regard to the cap, I think this is something players should weigh in on, but recognize not everyone will be happy. If there is no cap, there are sure to be people who don't like getting passed on the leader board by people playing more cons than them. If there is a cap, there are sure to be people who don't like not progressing when they are buying more tickets and attending mode events.


In both of these regards, I think a poll might help TD decide where the player base is at. I'll set one up.