TOPIC: Missed GenCon, Game Hole Con exp for 2016?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote: Tokens not really being necessary (especially since you get 99% of the benefits at just Hardcore level where you can survive "with a pickup group and a starter pack of tokens").

You keep saying this, and I can't tell if you think it's a ridiculous statement but you are using it to make a point, or you agree with it.

I'll say that while you can survive hardcore with a PuG and a token 10-pack, it would be exceptionally unlikely that the entire party survives.

Even with experienced forumites I don't think it's particularly likely.

I am paraphrasing Raven, who said:

Raven wrote: Why should HardCore have more XP than Normal? Because it's still doable with a pick-up group, and a starter pack of tokens per person. It's hard - but it isn't impossible - and those people who feel up to the challenge (as a group) should get some reward for pushing their comfort zone and trying the challenge.

If you want, you two can have a discussion of just how feasible Hardcore is with a pick-up group and a starter pack.

Ha!

OK - I know better than to get involved in an argument with Raven when death is on the line.

But I think the most likely outcomes of PuG token 10-pack at HC on combat is running out of time in room 7, followed by TPK.

Okay - I'm gonna be honest here: The last time I did the math on whether a newbie PUG could take on the challenge of HardCore was a couple years back. Matthew, your excellent breakdown shows me that things may have changed a bit since then.

My argument stands, though, that if people are doing HardCore for the XP, they can probably survive to room 7 even if they get a TPK or a time-out on the final boss.

And if this hypothetical Hardcore run is being lead by a couple of players who are not brand new, but have a few reds to hand out (Remember my comment about "+1 Weapons for everyone! Gauntlets of OgrePower for everyone!") and have solid teamwork suggestions (Bard should be singing! Cleric should cast Prayer and then Guidance! Wizard, cast your Ray spells! Rogue, do your sneak attack! Ranger, bump those sliders into better zones so they hit!") then the odds of survival go up.

That said, TD modules don't even guarantee that players on Normal will kill the Boss... just that they should have a reasonable chance of getting to Room 7.

And, considering the cost of a TD run, I think it's very reasonable to tailor the event so that you get a full 2hours of play for your $50+. Long gone are the days when people could play $12 or $16 for the chance to go through the dungeon, and get killed in room 5, but still say they got their money's worth.

bpsymington wrote:

Harlax wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Harlax wrote:
Loot > Survivor Pin

Loot>XP>Survivor Pin for most I would wager.

I like winning, but I'm perfectly fine with dying as long as I make it room 7. Full loot and XP.

That's my thinking.

That being said, I have saved all of my survivor buttons (and ghost buttons!).

I tried to, but I apparently lost one of them in the exhibit hall on Sunday afternoon. Must have fallen off my bag. Oh well, probably karmic justice for the way I "earned" the other one this year.

Incognito wrote:

Picc wrote: Eric, I know your playing devils advocate, and maybe we do need an epic difficulty in the main dungeon (subject for another thread). But the vast majority of what your proposing would be a pr nightmare.

like Halrax said its going to be impossible to police level requirments. Its not like dedicated nightmare runs were very effective at filtering.

The reason those restrictions didn't work was because TD wasn't willing to hold firm on the policy.

But still, having a policy is often useful. Take for example, the minimum age limit rule. That exists but also is not strictfully enforced. Do you think they should police the age requirement? Or should they abolish it?

Is having an age requirement and possibly needing to ask small children to leave a potential "pr nightmare"?

It could be if it were enforced and the parents of those children complained to Jeff and posted negative reviews after the fact.Remember complaints don't have to be rational to be damaging. End of the day TD can have whatever policies it likes but if they are unable or unwilling to enforce them they are meaningless.

Incognito wrote:

The typical group frankly needs to be pandered to. They're paying a lot of money to pretend to be heros once a year. It doesnt take much to spoil that experence for them and they dont see the same cracks in the logic we do after several runs per year.

And they are already being pandered to - quite heavily in fact, such as the most recent rule change to treasure. I think they are pandered to way too much.

So do you think we should pander to the typical group in terms of XP (possibly at the expense of upper level players)?

Well, once again having a system that grants XP only to players of sufficiently low level will pander specifically to them.

I don't think groups should be pandered to in terms or XP, truthfully I don't think we should do anything that emphasises the XP system since its kind of broken and I cant see a good reason to draw people attention to that until its fixed. Im not on the top 100 page, I dont really care if new people can crack it or not. I'd be just as happy if XP went away entirely or was replaced by a different loyalty program.

I just got my 7th level badge holder and it's pretty cool.

But outside of that the only level rewards that have meant anything to me are access to the Lorda and Ladies section and the extra loot at 6th.

Harlax wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Harlax wrote:
Loot > Survivor Pin

Loot>XP>Survivor Pin for most I would wager.

I like winning, but I'm perfectly fine with dying as long as I make it room 7. Full loot and XP.

Exactly! Loot and XP rank far above Survivor pin for me (although I really like the pin).

Picc wrote: I don't think groups should be pandered to in terms or XP, truthfully I don't think we should do anything that emphasises the XP system since its kind of broken and I cant see a good reason to draw people attention to that until its fixed. Im not on the top 100 page, I dont really care if new people can crack it or not. I'd be just as happy if XP went away entirely or was replaced by a different loyalty program.

I agree with you.

I also wouldn't mind if the XP system went away entirely.

One flaw right now is that it is entirely on the honor system. Someone can play Non-Lethal, get the XP code, and simply give themselves full Hardcore/Nightmare XP.

jedibcg wrote:

Harlax wrote:
Loot > Survivor Pin

Loot>XP>Survivor Pin for most I would wager.

Let's get rid of the pin then!

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Harlax wrote:
Loot > Survivor Pin

Loot>XP>Survivor Pin for most I would wager.

Let's get rid of the pin then!

The Victim pins went away without much of a splash

I actually thought the victim pins were cooler.

Incognito wrote:

Picc wrote: I don't think groups should be pandered to in terms or XP, truthfully I don't think we should do anything that emphasises the XP system since its kind of broken and I cant see a good reason to draw people attention to that until its fixed. Im not on the top 100 page, I dont really care if new people can crack it or not. I'd be just as happy if XP went away entirely or was replaced by a different loyalty program.

I agree with you.

I also wouldn't mind if the XP system went away entirely.

One flaw right now is that it is entirely on the honor system. Someone can play Non-Lethal, get the XP code, and simply give themselves full Hardcore/Nightmare XP.

True, but people who do that have to live with themselves.

bpsymington wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Picc wrote: I don't think groups should be pandered to in terms or XP, truthfully I don't think we should do anything that emphasises the XP system since its kind of broken and I cant see a good reason to draw people attention to that until its fixed. Im not on the top 100 page, I dont really care if new people can crack it or not. I'd be just as happy if XP went away entirely or was replaced by a different loyalty program.

I agree with you.

I also wouldn't mind if the XP system went away entirely.

One flaw right now is that it is entirely on the honor system. Someone can play Non-Lethal, get the XP code, and simply give themselves full Hardcore/Nightmare XP.

True, but people who do that have to live with themselves.

A part of the current XP system is honor system, but not all. You actually have to have a certificate for each Dungeon in order to enter XP, so (unless you somehow obtain them on the black market) you have to do a run on each Dungeon to get experience for them. And, you can't go back and alter past XP (at least past 2-3 years ago). I do agree that there are no controls on listing what type of Dungeon you ran, or how far you got in it.

Mike Steele wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Picc wrote: I don't think groups should be pandered to in terms or XP, truthfully I don't think we should do anything that emphasises the XP system since its kind of broken and I cant see a good reason to draw people attention to that until its fixed. Im not on the top 100 page, I dont really care if new people can crack it or not. I'd be just as happy if XP went away entirely or was replaced by a different loyalty program.

I agree with you.

I also wouldn't mind if the XP system went away entirely.

One flaw right now is that it is entirely on the honor system. Someone can play Non-Lethal, get the XP code, and simply give themselves full Hardcore/Nightmare XP.

True, but people who do that have to live with themselves.

A part of the current XP system is honor system, but not all. You actually have to have a certificate for each Dungeon in order to enter XP, so (unless you somehow obtain them on the black market) you have to do a run on each Dungeon to get experience for them. And, you can't go back and alter past XP (at least past 2-3 years ago). I do agree that there are no controls on listing what type of Dungeon you ran, or how far you got in it.

Yeah, the other honor system part is that you can simply obtain a code (off of eBay) and enter it in.

Looks like you can still enter XP from up to 2013. So that is 4 years worth of XP (2013, 2014, 2015, and 2016).

Matthew Hayward wrote: OK - I know better than to get involved in an argument with Raven when death is on the line.

You going to change your forum handle to Vizzini then?

Ed