TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I offer new people free tickets. Since I keep most of the tokens I pull I don't see how it would hurt the token economy, well except monster bits which I trade. I admit it mifht be lowering the value of moster bits because I do need 40 of each and value them low.

Simple.

When treasure tokens go to the casual, newbie players, essentially they are "out of circulation." When treasure tokens get heavily consolidated by run organizers, that is a massive influx of Rares, monster trophies, even UR's/Relics.

I guess the analogy I am using is with commemorative coins and state quarters, where the U.S. government has made billions because of coins taken out of circulation.

Only if those tokens are going to the secondary market. Mine are used as upgrades and trades to make transmutes to make updgrades. Check what I am selling and look at what I pulled. You won't see the 50k in gold, most of the relics or the lengendary. So they are out of circulation just the same.

I would say having mondter bits in circulation is good for the economy because they only way to get them is from the boxes. If casual players don't trade then then those that do want them cannot get their hands on them.

And if you didn't have those tokens to make upgrades and to make transmutes, then you would probably need to buy more tokens (or do more runs) to get the tokens you needed.

Scenario 1:

You do a run.
Nine newbies pay their ticket price prices, get treasure tokens (that are largely out of circulation)
You need more tokens for transmutes, so you need to buy more tokens or do more runs (paying more money in the process)

Scenario 2:

You do a run, sponsoring the nine newbies who don't pay anything
You have the tokens you need for transmutes



Scenario 1 clearly leads to more revenue for TD.

Sorry Eric I can fully say you are wrong on this one. I would buy more tokens or buy more runs. I would do without. I don't then to have the best tokens to have a good time. I like playing with my friends and introducing the game to new people. I upgrade because I have the tokens. I buy 40 tickets and it gets me the pulls I got. I would not need to buy more.

jedibcg wrote: Brad I agree with now in in the past the more TE tokens could lead to a bad state.

I do however question though that there are currently 3 farmers. The biggest token sellers chad, kirk, matthew, ed and mike seem to be buying lots of tokens from TD to sell or just doing lots of runs. Of course I don't know what anyone else is doing but I find it suspect that anyone is buying tickets solely for loot. Again you may know but it seems suspect to me.

There's a big stigma against farming. Most people are not going to advertise that they're doing it.

But let's define terms - "farming" is buying tickets primarily, but not necessarily only, for profit rather than fun.

In that context, there are mercenaries who have advertised their services, but they don't call themselves "farmers."

But you're right, I could be lying. Unless I name people who told me things in confidence, I guess you don't know for sure.

I don't think you are lying I think defining farming might have been what was needed. Mercing may or may not be farming per your definition. I have ran with Harlax dupplying his players with CoA's and he has paid for my ticket. I enjoy playing with him and I believe he with me. That is not farming in my opinion, maybe you disagree. I did to help him out, see the dungeon another time and have fun. I got my free ticket and my 17 tokens.

jedibcg wrote: I don't think you are lying I think defining farming might have been what was needed. Mercing may or may not be farming per your definition. I have ran with Harlax dupplying his players with CoA's and he has paid for my ticket. I enjoy playing with him and I believe he with me. That is not farming in my opinion, maybe you disagree. I did to help him out, see the dungeon another time and have fun. I got my free ticket and my 17 tokens.

As I said before, I don't read minds (nor hearts) so I wouldn't dare judge your particular situation. Only you can do that.

If you made that same deal with a dozen groups of random strangers, it would seem a lot more "farmy."

But that's exactly why I oppose loopholes. What looks like farming to one person may not look like it to others. And visa versa.

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I offer new people free tickets. Since I keep most of the tokens I pull I don't see how it would hurt the token economy, well except monster bits which I trade. I admit it mifht be lowering the value of moster bits because I do need 40 of each and value them low.

Simple.

When treasure tokens go to the casual, newbie players, essentially they are "out of circulation." When treasure tokens get heavily consolidated by run organizers, that is a massive influx of Rares, monster trophies, even UR's/Relics.

I guess the analogy I am using is with commemorative coins and state quarters, where the U.S. government has made billions because of coins taken out of circulation.

Only if those tokens are going to the secondary market. Mine are used as upgrades and trades to make transmutes to make updgrades. Check what I am selling and look at what I pulled. You won't see the 50k in gold, most of the relics or the lengendary. So they are out of circulation just the same.

I would say having mondter bits in circulation is good for the economy because they only way to get them is from the boxes. If casual players don't trade then then those that do want them cannot get their hands on them.

And if you didn't have those tokens to make upgrades and to make transmutes, then you would probably need to buy more tokens (or do more runs) to get the tokens you needed.

Scenario 1:

You do a run.
Nine newbies pay their ticket price prices, get treasure tokens (that are largely out of circulation)
You need more tokens for transmutes, so you need to buy more tokens or do more runs (paying more money in the process)

Scenario 2:

You do a run, sponsoring the nine newbies who don't pay anything
You have the tokens you need for transmutes

Scenario 1 clearly leads to more revenue for TD.

Sorry Eric I can fully say you are wrong on this one. I would buy more tokens or buy more runs. I would do without. I don't then to have the best tokens to have a good time. I like playing with my friends and introducing the game to new people. I upgrade because I have the tokens. I buy 40 tickets and it gets me the pulls I got. I would not need to buy more.

Well, first of all, I can't speak for what you would do specifically. So obviously, in any argument theorizing about what a specific individual would do, that individual tends to be in a better position to say.

I don't quite get what you are saying about your reasoning and behavior.

So you are going to be buying 40 tickets regardless because it gets you the pulls you need? And you wouldn't need to buy more?

Well, in that case the question is whether those people on the run with you would be playing True Dungeon otherwise (and paying full price for it). Because if they would be playing TD and buying tickets anyway, then by letting them play for free then it means they aren't spending money they otherwise would spend on TD. (Though that feeds into the question of whether tickets would be available and if they would be sold otherwise. And even though TD consistently "sells out" via the GenCon online system, a lot of tickets and slots still end up being unused or empty.)

And at the very least, it seems like you are arguing that you would be spending the same amount of money in Scenario 1 and Scenario 2. And if that is the case, then Scenario 1 does not lead to less revenue for TD than Scenario 2.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I don't think you are lying I think defining farming might have been what was needed. Mercing may or may not be farming per your definition. I have ran with Harlax dupplying his players with CoA's and he has paid for my ticket. I enjoy playing with him and I believe he with me. That is not farming in my opinion, maybe you disagree. I did to help him out, see the dungeon another time and have fun. I got my free ticket and my 17 tokens.

As I said before, I don't read minds (nor hearts) so I wouldn't dare judge your particular situation. Only you can do that.

If you made that same deal with a dozen groups of random strangers, it would seem a lot more "farmy."

But that's exactly why I oppose loopholes. What looks like farming to one person may not look like it to others. And visa versa.

Fair enough but that is just why I found your numbers suspect. You know what was said to you I don't . Without knowing details someone make think I am farming, I don't. I play as much as I do because I like it. It would be much easier to buy 40 single tickets and just go on 40 runs than the work I do to organize 4 runs of 10 people.

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I don't think you are lying I think defining farming might have been what was needed. Mercing may or may not be farming per your definition. I have ran with Harlax dupplying his players with CoA's and he has paid for my ticket. I enjoy playing with him and I believe he with me. That is not farming in my opinion, maybe you disagree. I did to help him out, see the dungeon another time and have fun. I got my free ticket and my 17 tokens.

As I said before, I don't read minds (nor hearts) so I wouldn't dare judge your particular situation. Only you can do that.

If you made that same deal with a dozen groups of random strangers, it would seem a lot more "farmy."

But that's exactly why I oppose loopholes. What looks like farming to one person may not look like it to others. And visa versa.

Fair enough but that is just why I found your numbers suspect. You know what was said to you I don't . Without knowing details someone make think I am farming, I don't. I play as much as I do because I like it. It would be much easier to buy 40 single tickets and just go on 40 runs than the work I do to organize 4 runs of 10 people.

This year I organized 3 full runs of people (though I didn't keep anyone else's tokens).

And although that requires additional logistical work outside of GenCon, I think it would be a lot easier than going on lots of single runs.

It saves Con time. (You're going to be exhausted doing 40 runs). And when you have full control over the details of those runs, things can be done very conveniently and efficiently. You can do a top-down "this is how it's gonna be. This is who is going to play what class. This is what difficulty we are doing." Instead of needing to negotiate with 9 other people.

I personally don't have interest in farming. But hypothetically speaking, if I was, I would definitely go with buying out full slots.

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I offer new people free tickets. Since I keep most of the tokens I pull I don't see how it would hurt the token economy, well except monster bits which I trade. I admit it mifht be lowering the value of moster bits because I do need 40 of each and value them low.

Simple.

When treasure tokens go to the casual, newbie players, essentially they are "out of circulation." When treasure tokens get heavily consolidated by run organizers, that is a massive influx of Rares, monster trophies, even UR's/Relics.

I guess the analogy I am using is with commemorative coins and state quarters, where the U.S. government has made billions because of coins taken out of circulation.

Only if those tokens are going to the secondary market. Mine are used as upgrades and trades to make transmutes to make updgrades. Check what I am selling and look at what I pulled. You won't see the 50k in gold, most of the relics or the lengendary. So they are out of circulation just the same.

I would say having mondter bits in circulation is good for the economy because they only way to get them is from the boxes. If casual players don't trade then then those that do want them cannot get their hands on them.

And if you didn't have those tokens to make upgrades and to make transmutes, then you would probably need to buy more tokens (or do more runs) to get the tokens you needed.

Scenario 1:

You do a run.
Nine newbies pay their ticket price prices, get treasure tokens (that are largely out of circulation)
You need more tokens for transmutes, so you need to buy more tokens or do more runs (paying more money in the process)

Scenario 2:

You do a run, sponsoring the nine newbies who don't pay anything
You have the tokens you need for transmutes

Scenario 1 clearly leads to more revenue for TD.

Sorry Eric I can fully say you are wrong on this one. I would buy more tokens or buy more runs. I would do without. I don't then to have the best tokens to have a good time. I like playing with my friends and introducing the game to new people. I upgrade because I have the tokens. I buy 40 tickets and it gets me the pulls I got. I would not need to buy more.

Well, first of all, I can't speak for what you would do specifically. So obviously, in any argument theorizing about what a specific individual would do, that individual tends to be in a better position to say.

I don't quite get what you are saying about your reasoning and behavior.

So you are going to be buying 40 tickets regardless because it gets you the pulls you need? And you wouldn't need to buy more?

Well, in that case the question is whether those people on the run with you would be playing True Dungeon otherwise (and paying full price for it). Because if they would be playing TD and buying tickets anyway, then by letting them play for free then it means they aren't spending money they otherwise would spend on TD. (Though that feeds into the question of whether tickets would be available and if they would be sold otherwise. And even though TD consistently "sells out" via the GenCon online system, a lot of tickets and slots still end up being unused or empty.)

And at the very least, it seems like you are arguing that you would be spending the same amount of money in Scenario 1 and Scenario 2. And if that is the case, then Scenario 1 does not lead to less revenue for TD than Scenario 2.

Sone of the people would not be playing TD. I cannot speak for all of them. 56 is a large pill to swallow for lots to try something they nothing about.
I was saying if I felt the need to get that many pulls I could do them as single ticket purchases. I would still have bought 40 tickets out of the 8000 so there would be less people going through the dungeon. The revenue for TD doesn't change. Hope that makes sense. Whether I own the 40 tickets and run with my group, new people or myself 40 times it is the same money when there are a finite number of tickets that sell out.

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I don't think you are lying I think defining farming might have been what was needed. Mercing may or may not be farming per your definition. I have ran with Harlax dupplying his players with CoA's and he has paid for my ticket. I enjoy playing with him and I believe he with me. That is not farming in my opinion, maybe you disagree. I did to help him out, see the dungeon another time and have fun. I got my free ticket and my 17 tokens.

As I said before, I don't read minds (nor hearts) so I wouldn't dare judge your particular situation. Only you can do that.

If you made that same deal with a dozen groups of random strangers, it would seem a lot more "farmy."

But that's exactly why I oppose loopholes. What looks like farming to one person may not look like it to others. And visa versa.

Fair enough but that is just why I found your numbers suspect. You know what was said to you I don't . Without knowing details someone make think I am farming, I don't. I play as much as I do because I like it. It would be much easier to buy 40 single tickets and just go on 40 runs than the work I do to organize 4 runs of 10 people.

This year I organized 3 full runs of people (though I didn't keep anyone else's tokens).

And although that requires additional logistical work outside of GenCon, I think it would be a lot easier than going on lots of single runs.

It saves Con time. (You're going to be exhausted doing 40 runs). And when you have full control over the details of those runs, things can be done very conveniently and efficiently. You can do a top-down "this is how it's gonna be. This is who is going to play what class. This is what difficulty we are doing." Instead of needing to negotiate with 9 other people.

I personally don't have interest in farming. But hypothetically speaking, if I was, I would definitely go with buying out full slots.

I dunno if I was going to farm I would care about what class I was playing or even how well I did. There is a greater con time commitment, I agree. Buying 40 individual tickets to any runs would be easier than attempting to get 4 full runs of each dungeon that work with maximum number of people's schedules. I was comparing how I would farm to the work I actially have to do because I am not farming. I wouldn't even attempt to dind new people if I wanted to farm, not worth the effort. I would want to die in room 1 so I wouldn't spend two hours in the dungeon.

If people are playing because they're having fun with their friends, then loot is a secondary concern. They'd still do it even I've their monetary rewards were less than the cost of the ticket. No one wants to curb that. It's part of what makes the TD community so cool.

If the average value of loot exceeds the cost of the ticket, you'll encourage behavior you don't want.

There's an easy, low-risk way to know if there's a problem or not: sell the bubbles.

Sell a single ticket for $560, with the event time during the bubbles. Whoever buys the ticket doesn't get to go past the coaching room.

The coach just looks at the person's TEs and scrawls "170 chips" or whatever across the party card, and hands it back with a fist full of wristbands and ten 10-packs.

The person marches straight to the XP desk and hands out treasure chips and completion tokens. No XP card, though. That's stupid.

It can be the canary-in-the-coal-mine. If nobody buys them, then we know there's no farming problem. If they sell out, then we made a few dozen more tickets available for newbies, TD gets a few more bucks, and maybe we start thinking about loot caps.

Makes sense to me. I would buy zero of those tickets but there are those that would. I don't know if that is good or bad. I am reserving judgement.

It would be interesting because though it would take little time as far as GC is concerned ypu are booked for 2 hpurs and could not do it on the double bubble.

jedibcg wrote: Makes sense to me. I would buy zero of those tickets but there are those that would. I don't know if that is good or bad. I am reserving judgement.

Since we sell out every year anyway, it makes sense to me to draw any farmers away from slots that "real" players would actually use.