TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

binia wrote: The idea of selling "treasure runs" is interesting - thanks Kirk. It could curtail a lot of the treasure farming before it gets out of hand.

To play devil's advocate, though, you're getting awfully close to a game of chance, I.e. Gambling. It's close to buying a dozen raffle tickets, with prizes ranging from 50 cent uncommons to $400 relics. Someone would need to research the legal definition of gambling in Indiana before moving forward with this idea.

Tom has suggested selling a 160 pack at GenCon with the same mix as treasure, and the price would be $560 or so. No completion tokens and no starter packs.

Hmmmm... sorry in advance for the half baked ideas.

How is this different from selling older, high value packs of Magic: The Gathering? I can't see any relevant way.

lol, does this put RoSP back on the tale then? or SRoEC?....

The possibility of loot farming is why I have suggested not letting the proposed Ioun Stone stack with the CoA. It could added to the recipe for the CoA with a value of 1 point. If it does stack, and Jeff is considering another transmute down the road for the 3 Ioun Stones, we could be looking at 25 chips, or more, per player. This could mean a significant change in the treasure mix or entire runs purchased for farming, two things I do not believe are healthy for True Dungeon.

As far as an attempt to limit the benefits from ghosting, maybe a hard cap on the number of pulls you can get from a ghosted slot would help? It could be somewhere between 5-10, if you have the tokens to get to that number.

I understand the concerns about letting the new stone stack with CoA and I share those concerns, especially as it relates to ghosting, but if I look at it from TD perspective, the new stone is going to generate a lot of revenue as a PYP. If it doesn't stack, that revenue will go down.

balthasar wrote: The possibility of loot farming is why I have suggested not letting the proposed Ioun Stone stack with the CoA. It could added to the recipe for the CoA with a value of 1 point. If it does stack, and Jeff is considering another transmute down the road for the 3 Ioun Stones, we could be looking at 25 chips, or more, per player. This could mean a significant change in the treasure mix or entire runs purchased for farming, two things I do not believe are healthy for True Dungeon.

As far as an attempt to limit the benefits from ghosting, maybe a hard cap on the number of pulls you can get from a ghosted slot would help? It could be somewhere between 5-10, if you have the tokens to get to that number.

Like you said, a hard cap on the rewards you get from a ghost slot would solve the problem of people buying out runs for token farming. That cap would need to be set low enough so that there is no financial incentive to do ghost runs. That would solve the problem.

Having the new Ioun Stone stack or not stack doesn't really matter, because I think the limit needs to be below the level of the CoA, because with the current treasure box mix that's already too high for ghost slots.

balthasar wrote: The possibility of loot farming is why I have suggested not letting the proposed Ioun Stone stack with the CoA. It could added to the recipe for the CoA with a value of 1 point. If it does stack, and Jeff is considering another transmute down the road for the 3 Ioun Stones, we could be looking at 25 chips, or more, per player. This could mean a significant change in the treasure mix or entire runs purchased for farming, two things I do not believe are healthy for True Dungeon.

As far as an attempt to limit the benefits from ghosting, maybe a hard cap on the number of pulls you can get from a ghosted slot would help? It could be somewhere between 5-10, if you have the tokens to get to that number.

While I think we all agree that having whole runs bought out for treasure farming is a bad thing, I am not as convinced that buying whole ghosted runs is a bad thing.

Each token costs Jeff et al approximately the same amount to produce.
By selling more tokens, they are increasing revenue.

They would probably have to produce more tokens in order to allow this to happen, and eventually the resale value for each would fall, as there would be more of each one available.
At some point, supply would outpace demand, and ghosted runs would cease to be valuable enough to justify.

I am probably missing something, and I know I can count on those with more experience in such matters to correct me.

MasterED wrote:

Brad wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: Finally, I think True Dungeon should sell "treasure runs" at the same place they sell tokens. You pay the current ticket price (e.g. $56) and you receive a 10-pack and whatever treasure draws you have tokens for, but no completion tokens.

I agree with this because it basically resolves the farming question.

Ed

I see the following happening.


Player 1 : hey can I borrow your charm of avarice for 5 minutes?
Player 2 : sure, for 10 bucks

It would be unwise for Player 1 to do so - it hurts them. They invested all that effort and money to "loan" it out for $10. Certainly people will continue to be unwise. But is this better or worse then the same Player 2 buying out a run and new players can't get in?

Make the minimum at least 5 runs so you are talking $280. Because anyone that is willing to spend $280 would also likely spend $560 to buy out a run.

Ed

10 bucks was just an example, how about you can borrow it for 5 treasure chips, or 50 bucks or what ever.

at least when tokens are loaned on a run, they are generally out of circulation for 2+ hours during the run. This way someone could theoretically reuse the same tokens over and over a dozen times in the same time period.

The other potential answer here is to just let economic principles do their work. I'm not an expert, but seems to me that the more treasure accumulated (i.e. stacking the new stone) all we're doing is increase the supply of tokens at large. If demand remains unchanged, then the value or price of those tokens should drop until the net value remains unchanged.

Now, if ghosting gets to the point that it prohibits prospective new players from trying the game, or even casual players from continuing to the play the game, you could argue that demand will drop and the net effect is that prices drop even faster and the net value of ghosting a run will drop until it reaches a point where it's no longer economical. Problem solved.

Again, I'm no expert, but if ghosting is not hurting the value of the tokens, then it's probably not all bad.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
I don't think there is any evidence that people are buying out runs to ghost, and I think the main objection to ghosting comes from the fear of denying other players limited slots.

And I'll tell you, you're wrong. I know there are people who are planning on buying out runs with the intent of ghosting for the loot, not playing. I don't get around much, and I know of at least three. And every new TE only makes it more attractive.

And I'll confess, I've decided to do it, too. I've given up fighting this battle. Everyone has told me for years I was being paranoid, so I can't help chuckling a little as I read this thread.

But whatever the rules are for ghosts, they should be the same as for minions. If you buy someone's ticket and they give you all their loot, then they are just a ghost with a body and should be treated the same way as a ghost without one.

But how do you tell a mercenaries from folks like Harlax's son and friends? Well, that's the tricky part, isn't it?

I'd say it is pretty easy to tell the difference. A $56 ticket where there is a player in the coaching room, through the dungeon, and in the epilogue room is different than a $56 ticket without a player. One of them clearly provided somebody enjoyment, the other provided only loot. One is a real player, one is a ghost.

Note that there are many reasons for ghosting. Somebody doesn't show up for a run. You wanted to run with a smaller group than 10. Or you wanted extra loot. There are probably other reasons. I'm not saying that ghosting is bad, but each ghost does take up a slot that a person could have enjoyed (potentially a brand new player to TD). In my opinion we should make sure they aren't being burned up simply for loot while still giving consideration to other reasons to ghost players.

I don't think there is anything inherently wrong with farming runs except for the fact that demand for tickets is high and we always run out and therefore you are preventing somebody from actually playing the game. That's why I suggested a way to just buy the loot. I am not a lawyer but I don't think it is gambling any more than buying a 10-pack of tokens is gambling. The key is that there is NO cash value for tokens.

My experience when I told them I was ghosting a ticket: they started to hand me a bunch of packs and we're about to get rid of the extra wristband...I told them I wanted the wristband for treasure even if I didn't get the extra packs. The girl was confused and said that wasnt ghosting, but confirmed with someone else that it was an option.

As for how to handle retainers in the future:
I believe most of us think that the best course will prevent people from buying tickets for the sole purpose of getting the treasure...and hopefully not punishing others (who either have a no-show or want to run with a smaller group).
I think retainers should still get the pack at the beginning and the completion token(s) at the end and be guaranteed the three treasure: there are part of the purchase price of a ticket. They should not get the pin or XP cards, as those are given for actually running the dungeon (basically, these are one per person, regardless of how many wristbands they have).
The question/variable is bonus treasure from tokens. I think the best plan is to set a limit that makes it not worth the effort to buy out a run for treasure, but doesn't punish players too harshly for a no-show. One difficulty in setting this value is that it will probably need to change through the years: as ticket prices go up and/or treasure mix changes, the number will need to adjust to maintain the goals.
Is 15 max treasure too much for now? Can those who are considering buying runs for treasure share where the tipping point is? I really hope it isn't below 10, because that would suck when I have someone no-show or do a double down run.
...hmm, maybe a better plan is to allow each person to get full treasure from one extra wristband? But any beyond that are limited to max 10 treasure? That probably wouldn't even need to adjust in the future as you won't be hurting the no-show or double down players (only the one-man runs will suffer, but I don't think there is a way to protect them and prevent treasure farming at the same time.

To address other concerns/thoughts:
Mules (bringing people to runs to avoid treasure limits while farming) - if someone is going to buy tickets and bring others along so that they can farm treasure...well, fine. I don't see a good enough reason to prevent this. Presumably, those people are still playing (else they are wasting 2 hours to give their friend tokens). And anything done to stop it will create hassles for those who equip friends/family.

Buying fake runs for treasure: allowing someone to show treasure enhancers, pay ticket price, and collect treasure without going through the dungeon/buying up tickets. It feels wrong, but why? This seems to solve the issue of tickets being bought out to farm treasure, but this will result in people with max treasure draws buying up tons of treasure and de-valueing all tokens. There would need to be a limit on doing it...the limit right now is the time spent in the dungeon limiting how often treasure enhancers can be used. So, I feel that if this strategy is done, the player would need to pay the ticket price, hand in the treasure enhancers being used, and then come back two hours later to pick up their treasure enhancers and treasure draws. This sounds like a logistical/admin nightmare, please don't do this.

Mike Steele wrote:

balthasar wrote: The possibility of loot farming is why I have suggested not letting the proposed Ioun Stone stack with the CoA. It could added to the recipe for the CoA with a value of 1 point. If it does stack, and Jeff is considering another transmute down the road for the 3 Ioun Stones, we could be looking at 25 chips, or more, per player. This could mean a significant change in the treasure mix or entire runs purchased for farming, two things I do not believe are healthy for True Dungeon.

As far as an attempt to limit the benefits from ghosting, maybe a hard cap on the number of pulls you can get from a ghosted slot would help? It could be somewhere between 5-10, if you have the tokens to get to that number.

Like you said, a hard cap on the rewards you get from a ghost slot would solve the problem of people buying out runs for token farming. That cap would need to be set low enough so that there is no financial incentive to do ghost runs. That would solve the problem.

Having the new Ioun Stone stack or not stack doesn't really matter, because I think the limit needs to be below the level of the CoA, because with the current treasure box mix that's already too high for ghost slots.

It also is a bit situational. I know at WYC both Lazlo and I purchased an entire empty run that was unsold, solely for the treasure. A treasure cap might have cost TD nearly $1k in revenue for no good reason (the runs were empty). But I wouldn't do that at GenCon and take up a slot for real players. But perhaps I would if I could just buy the loot. That means more revenue for TD and possibly with less of a cut from GenCon too.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
I don't think there is any evidence that people are buying out runs to ghost, and I think the main objection to ghosting comes from the fear of denying other players limited slots.

And I'll tell you, you're wrong. I know there are people who are planning on buying out runs with the intent of ghosting for the loot, not playing. I don't get around much, and I know of at least three. And every new TE only makes it more attractive.

And I'll confess, I've decided to do it, too. I've given up fighting this battle. Everyone has told me for years I was being paranoid, so I can't help chuckling a little as I read this thread.

But whatever the rules are for ghosts, they should be the same as for minions. If you buy someone's ticket and they give you all their loot, then they are just a ghost with a body and should be treated the same way as a ghost without one.

But how do you tell a mercenaries from folks like Harlax's son and friends? Well, that's the tricky part, isn't it?

I'd say it is pretty easy to tell the difference. A $56 ticket where there is a player in the coaching room, through the dungeon, and in the epilogue room is different than a $56 ticket without a player. One of them clearly provided somebody enjoyment, the other provided only loot. One is a real player, one is a ghost.

Kirk, in general I agree with that. As long as you have a player in the coaching room all the way through the epilogue room, I think that's totally OK regardless of what the arrangement is. Even if that person was somehow recruited just to fill a spot to get someone more token pulls, that person is going through the Dungeon, hopefully enjoying it, and maybe even getting hooked.

The only problem I see is with Ghosting. And, that problem is very easily solved by setting the rewards for a ghost slot low enough so that it's not worth someone buying out a run to farm tokens. I like the solution of giving 8 token packs, I see no way that can be abused. If the solution also includes an option for token pulls, I'd recommend it be pretty low, no more than 10 and possibly less, with no completion tokens.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:
I don't think there is any evidence that people are buying out runs to ghost, and I think the main objection to ghosting comes from the fear of denying other players limited slots.

And I'll tell you, you're wrong. I know there are people who are planning on buying out runs with the intent of ghosting for the loot, not playing. I don't get around much, and I know of at least three. And every new TE only makes it more attractive.

And I'll confess, I've decided to do it, too. I've given up fighting this battle. Everyone has told me for years I was being paranoid, so I can't help chuckling a little as I read this thread.

But whatever the rules are for ghosts, they should be the same as for minions. If you buy someone's ticket and they give you all their loot, then they are just a ghost with a body and should be treated the same way as a ghost without one.

But how do you tell a mercenaries from folks like Harlax's son and friends? Well, that's the tricky part, isn't it?

Brad I agree with now in in the past the more TE tokens could lead to a bad state.

I do however question though that there are currently 3 farmers. The biggest token sellers chad, kirk, matthew, ed and mike seem to be buying lots of tokens from TD to sell or just doing lots of runs. Of course I don't know what anyone else is doing but I find it suspect that anyone is buying tickets solely for loot. Again you may know but it seems suspect to me.