TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

balthasar wrote: If farming does become prevalent, it will effect participation at Gen Con. It will lag behind the practice of farming, but the farmers will eventually depress the market for tokens and lock people that like to do runs out of the Dungeon. As those people stop playing, sales of tokens should drop.

All that being said, I bet we could increase the profit margin if you stayed with a local and kept those hotel costs in your pocket

Agreed, but the effect on Jeff and the game would not be good in the short term. And this is Jeff's full-time job.

jedibcg wrote:

balthasar wrote: If farming does become prevalent, it will effect participation at Gen Con. It will lag behind the practice of farming, but the farmers will eventually depress the market for tokens and lock people that like to do runs out of the Dungeon. As those people stop playing, sales of tokens should drop.

All that being said, I bet we could increase the profit margin if you stayed with a local and kept those hotel costs in your pocket

Yeah eventually it wouldn't be profitable again but the game would go through a dark period as token economy is destroyed. Probably loss of lots of players too.


I said earlier that if I wanted to farm, WYC would be the place for me to do it. I am local, there is no badge cost and the rules for getting tickets is on the lax side of things. I will admit I ran two 10 ticket runs last year but only had a handful on my second run (5 people, 3 of us who had already done it). I however will only be buying one full run next year. Though I might do runs with other follks, my local group just isn't up to filling 2 full runs.

That's why I'm really hoping rules towards ghost tickets are put in place before WYC and GHC, because I can see some serious token farming there, given as you say the lower cost as well as the lower opportunity cost (less alternative things to do than at GENCON). And, at the last WYC, from what I heard, there was significant walk-in traffic for people playing for the first time. If there are a lot of runs bought out for token farming, that can have a really negative impact on the ability to establish a larger player base at WYC and GHC.

jedibcg wrote:

balthasar wrote: If farming does become prevalent, it will effect participation at Gen Con. It will lag behind the practice of farming, but the farmers will eventually depress the market for tokens and lock people that like to do runs out of the Dungeon. As those people stop playing, sales of tokens should drop.

All that being said, I bet we could increase the profit margin if you stayed with a local and kept those hotel costs in your pocket

Yeah eventually it wouldn't be profitable again but the game would go through a dark period as token economy is destroyed. Probably loss of lots of players too.


I said earlier that if I wanted to farm, WYC would be the place for me to do it. I am local, there is no badge cost and the rules for getting tickets is on the lax side of things. I will admit I ran two 10 ticket runs last year but only had a handful on my second run (5 people, 3 of us who had already done it). I however will only be buying one full run next year. Though I might do runs with other follks, my local group just isn't up to filling 2 full runs.

And there is no reason to believe it would recover.

Collectibles that have a blow off event rarely come back (Cabbage patch kids, Beanie Babies, etc.).

If people lose faith in the durable value of tokens, and stop buying them as a result, TD in its current form wouldn't continue to exist I suspect.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

balthasar wrote: If farming does become prevalent, it will effect participation at Gen Con. It will lag behind the practice of farming, but the farmers will eventually depress the market for tokens and lock people that like to do runs out of the Dungeon. As those people stop playing, sales of tokens should drop.

All that being said, I bet we could increase the profit margin if you stayed with a local and kept those hotel costs in your pocket

Yeah eventually it wouldn't be profitable again but the game would go through a dark period as token economy is destroyed. Probably loss of lots of players too.


I said earlier that if I wanted to farm, WYC would be the place for me to do it. I am local, there is no badge cost and the rules for getting tickets is on the lax side of things. I will admit I ran two 10 ticket runs last year but only had a handful on my second run (5 people, 3 of us who had already done it). I however will only be buying one full run next year. Though I might do runs with other follks, my local group just isn't up to filling 2 full runs.

And there is no reason to believe it would recover.

Collectibles that have a blow off event rarely come back (Cabbage patch kids, Beanie Babies, etc.).

If people lose faith in the durable value of tokens, and stop buying them as a result, TD in its current form wouldn't continue to exist I suspect.

This is my fear. If it goes too far and the game takes a downturn, it may never recover. And then all those farmers are left holding worthless tokens. So I think we all have an interest in making sure the game remains popular and thriving. Within reason I'm sure ghosting has minimal effect. But who decides what's within reason?

Wow, lots to read/comment on, let's start from the beginning.

One single player controlling ~0.5% of the tickets for Gencon (40/~8000), plus all the other players who buy out full runs (let alone multiple full runs) seems like the kind of thing that can add up quickly. Let's not overlook effects in aggregate. One person doing it isn't necessarily a problem. 10 or 20+ people doing it, however, starts effecting the supply of tickets, especially if they (intentionally or inadvertently) end up with 'prime time' slots (for whatever reason), as opposed to those runs mentioned earlier that are a bit less prone to filling up or remaining full (early Sunday mornings, etc).

Even with 'human ghosting' and 'newbie runs', it's tickets out of the system and moved to a secondary system. Especially one that redirects from the open and transparent Gencon system, and comes down to "be in the right place at the right time", as some have said about grabbing random people for 'free but no treasure' runs.

Note; Raven and Ed and others have offered me a slot in future runs, this isn't just about my personal perspective, but that of what is essentially introducing a secondary route of ticket control that few people outside of the forums will even know exists. We're 'solving' the issue of bought out runs by having a shadowy black market/secondary market, which seems less than ideal for the general public, even if it's 'working as intended' for others.

And to take a larger overhead view; the games popularity is built on people being able to play it. People buying out runs for profit at the cost of slot availability are potentially impacting their own user base; the fewer people that can play, the fewer potential customers there are to even be interested in buying those wares off stores or eBay or wherever. Plus there's other perspectives, volunteers standing around not doing a whole lot. Fewer people milling around looking to trade tokens, fewer people buying 10 packs, buttons, other swag. The logistics involved in TD are presumably built around expecting X amount of users. What if substantially fewer than that number show up? How might it impact volunteer availability/interest/enthusiasm if someone's shift is a ghost town due to treasure runs cutting the number of 'actual players'?

I should also note I'm not trying to drive this into absurdist territory. I don't really think someone is going to buy out even 5% of the tickets on their own, but I'm trying to make a point about the disproportionate impact that a few dozen users could conceivably have on the system for high demand events. I'd hate to miss out playing next year only to come to the forums and find people talking about how profitable (or not) their ghosted runs were.

The idea of making the treasure mix 'worse' to combat farming is something that isn't quite sitting right with me. Again, speaking as a newer player, the idea of having decent odds at pulling something *good* with my 4 token draws (or whatever they may be) is appealing. The notion that it's too good/lucrative and thus should be made worse simply because some people/groups are pulling hundreds of tokens is a bit disheartening. Hearing that there might be yet another treasure enhancer coming would conceivably only compound the matter. I get that they're a great way to drive token sales, but is it sustainable? Is it not counterproductive? If people drawing 19(or whatever the current theoretical max is) tokens is a problem now, how about in a few years when people are drawing 22 or 25 or 30? Do we need to keep making the mix worse to account for "_____ running with 9 ghosts/retainers/warm bodies and drawing 250-300 tokens at once"? Do we need to keep making the loot mix (on average) worse to account for a small portion of the user base?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: The forum posts like this are our *canary in the mine shaft* and it's good to keep watching them. If we watch carefully we can see the dead canary and get out before the mine blows.

This assumes that someone intent on exploiting the system would admit as much. I have to imagine that if things start going sideways, it'd be noted after the fact, with at least one convention experience being heavily impacted. The mine will have collapsed, and we'll have a few months between conventions to try to shore up the next one.

I doubt many people willing to take a stab at such exploitation would admit as much prior to putting their plan in action at least once. I recognize that no usable system is going to be 100% bulletproof, but if we're already seeing a few cracks, it's worth addressing. At the very least, players who do fall into fringe situations should have clear and consistent knowledge of how to proceed (get token packs in exchange, or treasure, or both, or whatever the outcome is, it should be common knowledge for both TD staff/volunteers and players).

Fake edit: and now I'm on the part of the conversation where we determine that the problem with a social activity is other people. Note that I'm not disagreeing, just finding it funny. "The demand was there for more slots, so TD added them, and now people just buy out the slots and don't fill them, which is essentially a ticket hike on those willing to pay it for their preferred experience". At that point might we're just having people buy two seats on airplanes because they don't like having someone sit beside them. They're willing to pay for that right, but someone is still left standing on the ground (assuming the flight sold out).

You are way off the mark to allege there is a "black market" run by people who buy out runs.

In my case, I buy out a run for a group of 8 of my sons friends. I am a member of Team Synergy, a group of people who join together to buy out as many as 4 runs to accommodate the runs we want to do. I sponsored one of the runs this year.

All of these tickets would have been purchased by the individuals if group purchase had not been possible. The person buying the tickets is simply reimbursed by the members of the group on that run.

If tickets had to be purchased individually there is no way we could run together.

Harlax wrote: You are way off the mark to allege there is a "black market" run by people who buy out runs.

Perhaps I chose my wording poorly, but my point does stand; plenty of people in this thread talk about buying out runs and potentially handing off tickets (free, at cost, whatever) to random people, or friends, or whatever. Extrapolated higher over time and including treasure runs, a not-insignificant amount of tickets become unavailable, or only available if you're on the forums, or only available if you happen to be standing in the right place at the right time and aren't doing anything else.

It takes the existing Gencon system set up to procure tickets and adds secondary layers.

This isn't intended to besmirch or cast aspersions towards players doing it, I'm simply noting the effect that exists and considering how that might affect things going forward.

And there's nothing *innately* wrong with wanting to run with friends, family, smaller teams for comfort, for challenge, etc. But the larger point remains; group size was increased due to demand, demand still outstrips supply (at least at Gencon, in general, fringe situations aside), and there are factors that could exacerbate things, in the future, possibly in the present.

Hell, between the various "I buy up 4 runs" people posting here, we've probably already accounted for a couple of percentage points. At what point does that become an issue? (Rhetorical, not seeking an actual answer). How many people snagging up half a percent here and there impacts the wider user base, whatever that reason might be. It's a sub-issue I'm noting regarding the other factors in play.

This thread itself noted that "double down" runs were common enough to have their own name, and the thread topic itself comes back to considerations for 1 or 0 player runs for profit.

The people who are coordinating runs also typically are supporting TD in other ways. Many are large token buyers

For those of us who volunteer full time it's darn hard to get runs that work with that schedule.

Without token purchases, without volunteers, without those of us who have hooked our friends on this incredible experience, there would not be a TD. Or at least not one anything like what we have now.

And I'm not arguing otherwise. You seem to take issue with my statement as though I'm implying something unseemly, but I'm simply noting that having this effect in play has consequences (or MIGHT have consequences, present or future). People (I don't recall whom) have commented that they have provided runs for other people for free or at cost, or arrange runs on the forums, which has pros (building the team they want, getting the extra treasure they want, whatever it might be) and potential cons (if 5 or 10% of tickets are only available if you're on the forums or in the right place at the right time, that is quantifiably impacting ticket availability through the initial manner of acquiring them).

In the short/narrow view, as long as TD gets paid for the tickets, it shouldn't really matter whether it's 10 players or 0 players. In the longer view, locking players out of actually getting to play is an issue (be it due to farming, or due to not knowing the alternate means of acquisition), I just think that having the manner of gaining entry to a significant (if not large... yet) portion of the tickets has other considerations in play. If not for 2017, then potentially in the longer term.

So person X buys 4 runs out and Y buys 4 and Z buys 8 and so on until suddenly 10 or 20 percent are either for farming or require forum usage to gain access to. For some, that's a feature, I'm simply noting the potential for it to also be a bug. Run size was increased to account for some of the demand, if enough people are buying out runs or doubling down or whatever that fewer actual people are playing, it seems that effort may have not been as successful as hoped, even if it's more lucrative in ticket sales.

And there are other logistical considerations. Does that one big buyer actually buy enough tokens to offset the purchases that those other 9 or 19 or 39+ people might have made? Maybe they do, but that also leaves TD dis-proportionally reliant on those people, which means that eventually if those people have to give up on the game or can't make it for whatever reason, their loss is felt at a greater impact level (especially since some of those efforts to cater to their desires might not work or even be counter productive for drawing in newer players).

Again, I'm not trying to 'call out' people, simply noting some potential outcomes and considerations that I felt weren't necessarily being addressed, even in a larger (and shockingly on topic) thread.

Edit: also, that Wall Of Text was built and edited repeatedly as I caught up on a couple hundred posts. Apologies if it isn't always clear exactly what aspect I'm addressing in a given line, but hopefully the paragraphs make it clear. Ghosting, Retainers, Bought out runs, all sort of aspects of similar (but not identical) considerations, not necessarily bad, but perhaps in need of clarifying policies, etc.

I'm pointedly NOT saying that Raven shouldn't get double downs that she's more comfortable with, or that you shouldn't be able to set up a run with your son and his friends, or that people shouldn't be able to challenge themselves, or perhaps even farm. It's a wider series of pondering regarding other side aspects, like ticket availability, like meeting the desires of as many people as possible, of recognizing that TD's business model may have some tangential issues impacting things (like the URTE situation which people seem to love in design, and then bemoan at times, such as here).

Forar wrote:

Harlax wrote: You are way off the mark to allege there is a "black market" run by people who buy out runs.

Perhaps I chose my wording poorly, but my point does stand; plenty of people in this thread talk about buying out runs and potentially handing off tickets (free, at cost, whatever) to random people, or friends, or whatever. Extrapolated higher over time and including treasure runs, a not-insignificant amount of tickets become unavailable, or only available if you're on the forums, or only available if you happen to be standing in the right place at the right time and aren't doing anything else.

It takes the existing Gencon system set up to procure tickets and adds secondary layers.

This isn't intended to besmirch or cast aspersions towards players doing it, I'm simply noting the effect that exists and considering how that might affect things going forward.

And there's nothing *innately* wrong with wanting to run with friends, family, smaller teams for comfort, for challenge, etc. But the larger point remains; group size was increased due to demand, demand still outstrips supply (at least at Gencon, in general, fringe situations aside), and there are factors that could exacerbate things, in the future, possibly in the present.

Hell, between the various "I buy up 4 runs" people posting here, we've probably already accounted for a couple of percentage points. At what point does that become an issue? (Rhetorical, not seeking an actual answer). How many people snagging up half a percent here and there impacts the wider user base, whatever that reason might be. It's a sub-issue I'm noting regarding the other factors in play.

This thread itself noted that "double down" runs were common enough to have their own name, and the thread topic itself comes back to considerations for 1 or 0 player runs for profit.

You are way off the mark. I am pretty sure I am the only one to mention giving away free tickets. I do not do it for profit. I fill tickets eith ny group, if I wanted to profit I wouldn't worry about filling them at all. After my guys grab all the tickets there are usually a few left over tickets. Usually at that point returning them would not be good for multiple reasons. 1 I would lose control of the group. We could not control difficulty, classes or play style as I don't have all the tickets. 2 I would lose money by returning the tickets as Gen Con takes a cut. 3 sometimes it is too late to return tickets as there is a deadline.
So now I have extra tickets. So I could ghost them as it is allowed, however I work to fill those with people that didn't get tickets or new people.

I do believe you are attempting to help but you ARE bashing the wrong folks. Everyone here wants what is best for TD. We definitely disagree what is best, but I can guarantee you that those on this thread bend over backwards for this game that we love.

Lots that buy full runs are going for a group because it is a pain in the ass for individuals to get into the same group if they had to buy them as individuals. Gen con knows this and that is why 1 person is allowed to buy 10 tickets.

Forar wrote: Wow, lots to read/comment on, let's start from the beginning.

Please - I'm begging - let's not

Dave wrote:
This is my fear. If it goes too far and the game takes a downturn, it may never recover. And then all those farmers are left holding worthless tokens. So I think we all have an interest in making sure the game remains popular and thriving. Within reason I'm sure ghosting has minimal effect. But who decides what's within reason?

I propose a committee of Brad and Mike, with Jeff to break ties