TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

Incognito wrote:

If you look at some fairly conservative values (assuming treasure draws stay the same as they were this year):

340 10-packs @ $3/ea = $1020
340 uncommon completion tokens @ $2/ea = $680
340 rare completion tokens @ $3/ea = $1020
6460 treasure draws @ $4/ea = $19,760
Total revenue: $28,560

It is also possible you could sell the treasure draws for more than $4/ea if the treasure mix stays the same as last year. Then profit goes up quite a bit. But if the treasure draws sell for more like $3/ea then you are breaking even with a lot of effort.

Your valuation of participation tokens is definitely on the low side (though you admit it is conservative).

This year there has been demand for all participation tokens because of the Ring of Heroism.
Usually there are some completion tokens that go for A LOT more (Ruby Prism, Lamps, Cadaver Charms, Goblets of Healing, Necklace of the Oak, Flask of Sharing, Horn of Blasting.

Also, I think you are severely undervaluing the treasure draws. For example, if we were to say 1% are UR's (valued at $100), that would contribute $1. If 15%-20% are monster trophies (valued at least at $10), that is another $1.50 - $2.

Well, also you have to consider volume. Can you sell treasure draws for $5/ea? Definitely. But can you sell 6,460 treasure draws for $5/ea? That might be tougher. Same with the completion tokens; 340 is a lot to move.

Without knowing the percentage of treasure that were legendaries, etc, it is hard to say. I'd say the draws at GenCon ended up being worth around the $6/ea range.

Cavor wrote: OK, im curious. Say someone had 2000$ to spend next year on tokens. Could someone more knowledgeable on the token market roughly calculate which is the better (more profitable using this years data) option:

1. Buy a 2k pack from TD
2. Buy 2k worth of runs with full treasure enhancers
3. Buy 2k worth of tokens on the secondary market

Well, I'd argue that #1 sets the price. By definition $2k of tokens from TD is worth $2k, in my book. But I think buying $2k of runs, with 19 treasure draws per ticket, is going to be better value, with the bonus that you get to go on a run.

For #3, again I'd argue that $2k on the secondary market would get you $2k of tokens, although a different mix than you'd get with #1.

I would definitely disagree on the option 1 I don't believe the after market real value of a $2,000 order is exactly $2,000 I would wonder what it has in value after being converted into trade tokens selling rares Ultra rares and other such things

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I would definitely disagree on the option 1 I don't believe the after market real value of a $2,000 order is exactly $2,000 I would wonder what it has in value after being converted into trade tokens selling rares Ultra rares and other such things

By my calculations a 2k order can be liquidated for around $1800. That's conservative and just assumes you are going to mulch everything into tradegoods and compete on price. You could do better - for example assuming there is another 3 common transmute that sells for $5, then that's another $200 right there.

IMO: If you buy tickets ($56 each), say a slot of ten, and then only end out having nine players, you will have an additional ticket. Say it is your intention to play with you own nine team members due to wanting to play nightmare and pre-chose character class without argument. So the tenth ticket is open. If you turn the ticket in I think you should absolutely be able to collect the beginning ten tokens, three guaranteed treasure, and completion token. You’ve paid for the ticket and that is the minimum of what the ticket buys. You’re not getting ahead in token value (unless you pull treasure really really well) and even if you did, so what, that is what the ticket at a minimum buys. If you have say ten CoA or Synergy items, that is gray area if you can use those affects since there is no actual tenth person to “charge” the area with those affects.

Why does this come up now. It has been the "Ghost" or whatever it becomes called way for some time.

Donald Rients wrote: Why does this come up now. It has been the "Ghost" or whatever it becomes called way for some time.

It's coming up now because - even though this is the way it's "always" been done, it changed at GenCon.

At one point, I was informed by the Registration desk that turning in a ticket could get me 8 10-packs of treasure PLUS the completion tokens, treasure tokens, etc.

Later I was told players could not get any treasure/completion tokens etc for their unused ticket. They had to take 8 tokens packs instead.

Then later it was clarified to "Choose one of the above options".

It doesn't seem like knowing "it's been this way for some time" means much, if it's been (or is being) changed. And exactly how it changes can make a big difference in how likely it is for people use or abuse the system.

Raven wrote:

Donald Rients wrote: Why does this come up now. It has been the "Ghost" or whatever it becomes called way for some time.

It's coming up now because - even though this is the way it's "always" been done, it changed at GenCon.

At one point, I was informed by the Registration desk that turning in a ticket could get me 8 10-packs of treasure PLUS the completion tokens, treasure tokens, etc.

Later I was told players could not get any treasure/completion tokens etc for their unused ticket. They had to take 8 tokens packs instead.

Then later it was clarified to "Choose one of the above options".

It doesn't seem like knowing "it's been this way for some time" means much, if it's been (or is being) changed. And exactly how it changes can make a big difference in how likely it is for people use or abuse the system.

Or in how likely people are to return a ticket that is going unused minutes before a run starts virtually guaranteeing that ticket value loss to TD

I can't even keep up with this thread. Obviously, a very passionate subject.

Personally, I have never ghosted a run and don't plan to. I only have my one Charm of Avarice and if I could scrape up the money for a second, I'd rather just buy more tokens in the next release to get what my party and I need.

Having said that, the number of treasure pulls and the average mix of treasure does influence how many runs I do at Gen Con. I usually start out making sure I get in one or two runs with each group I like to run with. I add in a couple of PUG runs, just because I find them very fun at times.

And then we get to the con and I have a few gaps in my schedule and nothing better to do. At that point I think about the cost of the run, but then realize I'll probably get back equivalent in token value, So of course at that point I do the extra runs.

I had no problem at Gen Con with a few hour notice buying returned tickets online to fill in my schedule. I had a few issues with Gen Con's online system showing ticket availability, but then not letting me put it in my cart or letting me buy it, but when I walked up to registration I would just let them know I was looking for any TD run in a certain timeframe. They would tell me what's available, I'd pay and get the ticket right there. Didn't have an issue with that this year. I do think the LOF location prevented a lot of people from hanging around on a waiting list and resulted in more returned tickets.

So for me, ghosting isn't an issue until I hear that it's impacting token values. I have no idea if we're getting to that point, but people who expect to profit from all these tokens have to realize that it's a fine line and prices could plummet without notice as these tokens have no "real" value, only "perceived" value. Which of course is why it's so important not to alienate the casual players.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Cavor wrote: OK, im curious. Say someone had 2000$ to spend next year on tokens. Could someone more knowledgeable on the token market roughly calculate which is the better (more profitable using this years data) option:

1. Buy a 2k pack from TD
2. Buy 2k worth of runs with full treasure enhancers
3. Buy 2k worth of tokens on the secondary market

Well, I'd argue that #1 sets the price. By definition $2k of tokens from TD is worth $2k, in my book. But I think buying $2k of runs, with 19 treasure draws per ticket, is going to be better value, with the bonus that you get to go on a run.

For #3, again I'd argue that $2k on the secondary market would get you $2k of tokens, although a different mix than you'd get with #1.

There is the time involved with doing 2k work of tuns as well if you are doing them solo that is almost 40 runs. If you buy out full runs it is 3 full and a partial 4th. So you committing some amount of time, if you go actually go on the run you still need to show up to turn in your ticket and show up at the xp desk to collect treasure. How much time that takes (assuming you are not going through the dungeon) is likely to vary.

Pretty much every year since its been possible I've ghosted/retained in some degree.

I always buy 4 full runs (if I can) and 1 grind run.
This way I'm ensured to get the classes and the difficulty I desire.
I run with the people I know and the party size I choose.

Every year there is confusion from the registration desk.

Some years they let me walk up with 10 tickets and get 10 bag 10 wrist band. Some years we argue about
waivers some times we don't.

Sometimes they try and give me more than 1 treasure pack per wrist band and I always turn it away, "Because I know better".

In my mind if I pay for the tickets and I surrender the tickets I should get what everyone else does, which is a wrist band and a pack of tokens. This is consistency. After that I like being able to use my Treasure Enhancing tokens on the "phantom" characters. At this point I would be fairly annoyed if that practice stopped. Only because I make some decisions based on that policy and that's the way its been for a while now.


I think the current methods, as I understood them were:
1. give ticket get wrist band and 1 pack
or
2. give ticket and get "some packs" and nothing else, that ticket goes to new player who pays for it.

Either of these methods get the event ticket back in the hands of TD.
The #2 isn't Ghosting or whatever you want to call it, its selling the ticket back to TD.

Better than option 2 is actually finding someone to give you cash directly and you give them the event ticket.

As for #1, weather or not a warm body goes through the event is somewhat irrelevant to all parties evolved. The folks that want to "farm" will just get warm bodies if required.


I do understand there are people who complain that "can't get tickets" and when you actually dig into the nature of them, its really a "can't get tickets...at the times they want".
As a coach I saw a lot of open spots, go through.
Its challenging to get tickets to the times you want or the specific runs you want, but I don't think demand currently outweighs capacity. With 3 cons offering "TD" I think capacity is good.

Now if folks are wanting a way to get treasure pulls for spending $$ then that is something that should independently considered. If the powers that be, really think enough people are only "ghosting" just to get pulls then that could be addressed.

In the past when we have looked at this the number of people we could find actually doing runs just for the tokens was only a couple, Maybe its gone up.

If farming does become prevalent, it will effect participation at Gen Con. It will lag behind the practice of farming, but the farmers will eventually depress the market for tokens and lock people that like to do runs out of the Dungeon. As those people stop playing, sales of tokens should drop.

All that being said, I bet we could increase the profit margin if you stayed with a local and kept those hotel costs in your pocket

balthasar wrote: If farming does become prevalent, it will effect participation at Gen Con. It will lag behind the practice of farming, but the farmers will eventually depress the market for tokens and lock people that like to do runs out of the Dungeon. As those people stop playing, sales of tokens should drop.

All that being said, I bet we could increase the profit margin if you stayed with a local and kept those hotel costs in your pocket

Yeah eventually it wouldn't be profitable again but the game would go through a dark period as token economy is destroyed. Probably loss of lots of players too.


I said earlier that if I wanted to farm, WYC would be the place for me to do it. I am local, there is no badge cost and the rules for getting tickets is on the lax side of things. I will admit I ran two 10 ticket runs last year but only had a handful on my second run (5 people, 3 of us who had already done it). I however will only be buying one full run next year. Though I might do runs with other follks, my local group just isn't up to filling 2 full runs.