TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

bpsymington wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'm back to selling the bubbles.

There are two bubbles every, what, 3.5 hours? You're talking about a 10% increase in ticket sales.

Which, by the way, is less than the 12% increase in the treasure cap from the first Nugget, with two more to go.

If you're worried about treasure deflation, you should oppose the Nuggets.

What do you mean, "selling the bubbles?" (I haven't read this entire thread.) Do you mean sell tix to treasure farmers who then don't go on the runs, but get treasure packs instead? If you mean sell buuble tix so there are more runs, we can't do that - the volunteers really need those breaks.

My apologies if this was already explained.

I'm a volunteer too. I'm not trying to steal anyone's breaks.

Not sure where the thread was. It boiled down to:

1. Sell a limited number of tickets at 10xnormal price. Limit them to the number of bubbles during the weekend. (Hence "sell the bubble")
2. Fill out a form/party card/whatever with total number of treasure the player and his/her 9 imaginary friends would earn if they ran the dungeon.
3. The "player" doesn't play, but walks straight to the XP desk to collect their treasure chips and whatever they would have gotten if they had played. No XP or badges.

Zero incentive for farmers to take tix from people who do want to play. Easier for newbies to find a run.

If no one buys them, then there is no farming problem and we're worried about nothing. If they sell out in minutes, then we do.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matt wrote: On the green with envy run 2 years ago which i had the pain/pleasure of being on. We planned nightmare and once in coaching room we selected hardcore once the dm/coaching laughing died down prior to our entry through the dungeon. Uncommons and lower aside from greed, pre planned ahead of time what builds and classes we all were playing.

Awesome run and one that would've been a pain if we had to explain to a random what we were upto. It took a while through forums to find our bodies and tweak builds as we surprised ourselves what could be min/maxed at green lvl.

We all made it room 7 and while we didn't win, some of us didn't die....

This sounds like a LOT of fun.

It was. It was a complete one off design and it was a lot of fun.

So many deaths

Bloody Epic was a Rares and lower version (allowing loot items) on the proposed epic difficulty. Calculating it seemed like basically nothing but critical slides would even hit so it was sidelined.

Bloody Nightmare WILL be a thing, at Whos Yer Con if nowhere else.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matt wrote: On the green with envy run 2 years ago which i had the pain/pleasure of being on. We planned nightmare and once in coaching room we selected hardcore once the dm/coaching laughing died down prior to our entry through the dungeon. Uncommons and lower aside from greed, pre planned ahead of time what builds and classes we all were playing.

Awesome run and one that would've been a pain if we had to explain to a random what we were upto. It took a while through forums to find our bodies and tweak builds as we surprised ourselves what could be min/maxed at green lvl.

We all made it room 7 and while we didn't win, some of us didn't die....

This sounds like a LOT of fun.

It was. It was a complete one off design and it was a lot of fun.

So many deaths

Bloody Epic was a Rares and lower version (allowing loot items) on the proposed epic difficulty. Calculating it seemed like basically nothing but critical slides would even hit so it was sidelined.

Bloody Nightmare WILL be a thing, at Whos Yer Con if nowhere else.

And if you need 2 more people for your group, I have 2 willing participants....

Harlax wrote:

Matt wrote: On the green with envy run 2 years ago which i had the pain/pleasure of being on. We planned nightmare and once in coaching room we selected hardcore once the dm/coaching laughing died down prior to our entry through the dungeon. Uncommons and lower aside from greed, pre planned ahead of time what builds and classes we all were playing.

Awesome run and one that would've been a pain if we had to explain to a random what we were upto. It took a while through forums to find our bodies and tweak builds as we surprised ourselves what could be min/maxed at green lvl.

We all made it room 7 and while we didn't win, some of us didn't die....

The greedy sealed plus one run was done at WYC. The difficulty of nightmare was boosted considerably after that.

I like to think we are to blame for that...

It was kinda spitting in the eye of Nightmare being hard when we did it on sealed packs.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'm back to selling the bubbles.

There are two bubbles every, what, 3.5 hours? You're talking about a 10% increase in ticket sales.

Which, by the way, is less than the 12% increase in the treasure cap from the first Nugget, with two more to go.

If you're worried about treasure deflation, you should oppose the Nuggets.

What do you mean, "selling the bubbles?" (I haven't read this entire thread.) Do you mean sell tix to treasure farmers who then don't go on the runs, but get treasure packs instead? If you mean sell buuble tix so there are more runs, we can't do that - the volunteers really need those breaks.

My apologies if this was already explained.

I'm a volunteer too. I'm not trying to steal anyone's breaks.

Not sure where the thread was. It boiled down to:

1. Sell a limited number of tickets at 10xnormal price. Limit them to the number of bubbles during the weekend. (Hence "sell the bubble")
2. Fill out a form/party card/whatever with total number of treasure the player and his/her 9 imaginary friends would earn if they ran the dungeon.
3. The "player" doesn't play, but walks straight to the XP desk to collect their treasure chips and whatever they would have gotten if they had played. No XP or badges.

Zero incentive for farmers to take tix from people who do want to play. Easier for newbies to find a run.

If no one buys them, then there is no farming problem and we're worried about nothing. If they sell out in minutes, then we do.

If you wanted to make this super awesome, you'd auction off the bubbles that should basically ensure profit is minimal, or maybe even they would be a loss.

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Reprints would definitely encourage me to get enough to build up to 10 CoA, but never build or buy TE again, unless a new one was released.

A continual rotation including

AoTF
RoR
CoGF

adding in the 3 new ioun stones

Would be a pretty solid rotation. It would give players access to multiple URTE tokens and keep the CoA attainable. It will be interesting to see if the new Ioun Stones are added to the CoA recipies or if they are part of a new Legendary. Simplicity says Option 1 so CoA stays relatively simple to craft but Option 2 allows the reduction of slots in the future.

Both seem good, not sure you can support both options tho without having effectively 2 recipies for 2 different legendary TE tokens that are effectively the same recipe which would just be confusing

Brad Mortensen wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'm back to selling the bubbles.

There are two bubbles every, what, 3.5 hours? You're talking about a 10% increase in ticket sales.

Which, by the way, is less than the 12% increase in the treasure cap from the first Nugget, with two more to go.

If you're worried about treasure deflation, you should oppose the Nuggets.

What do you mean, "selling the bubbles?" (I haven't read this entire thread.) Do you mean sell tix to treasure farmers who then don't go on the runs, but get treasure packs instead? If you mean sell buuble tix so there are more runs, we can't do that - the volunteers really need those breaks.

My apologies if this was already explained.

I'm a volunteer too. I'm not trying to steal anyone's breaks.

Not sure where the thread was. It boiled down to:

1. Sell a limited number of tickets at 10xnormal price. Limit them to the number of bubbles during the weekend. (Hence "sell the bubble")
2. Fill out a form/party card/whatever with total number of treasure the player and his/her 9 imaginary friends would earn if they ran the dungeon.
3. The "player" doesn't play, but walks straight to the XP desk to collect their treasure chips and whatever they would have gotten if they had played. No XP or badges.

Zero incentive for farmers to take tix from people who do want to play. Easier for newbies to find a run.

If no one buys them, then there is no farming problem and we're worried about nothing. If they sell out in minutes, then we do.

Thing is it's not equivalent.

I don't buy out runs to farm treasure, I get runs to have fun with friends but I don't overbuy so I don't take tickets out of other groups hands to pad my hoard.

If they sell the bubble on the other hand I'd buy one. It hurts no random newbies wanting to run and it pads my hoard.

I expect they would sell and would sell fast. It's a benefit for me, a benefit for TD and not a loss for other players (unless they also wanted to buy a bubble and there weren't any left)

It's a slippery slope. I know several people who buy 2k a year. Would it be better to order 2k token order or buy 4 bubbles? Seems like 4 bubbles is the better investment? What does that do to token sales?

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Reprints would definitely encourage me to get enough to build up to 10 CoA, but never build or buy TE again, unless a new one was released.

A continual rotation including

AoTF
RoR
CoGF

adding in the 3 new ioun stones

Would be a pretty solid rotation. It would give players access to multiple URTE tokens and keep the CoA attainable. It will be interesting to see if the new Ioun Stones are added to the CoA recipies or if they are part of a new Legendary. Simplicity says Option 1 so CoA stays relatively simple to craft but Option 2 allows the reduction of slots in the future.

Both seem good, not sure you can support both options tho without having effectively 2 recipies for 2 different legendary TE tokens that are effectively the same recipe which would just be confusing

I'd say keep with option 1 and just have the new IS (if we have to have the damn things) count as 1 point like AotF does. Wishful thinking would be if AoTF/CoGF don't see reprint to errata CoA that it counts as the new IS. That protects older players who invested in it while at same time leaving a viable path to it to encourage sales and crafting towards the CoA to 'functionally' get the out of print treasure enhancers.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'm back to selling the bubbles.

There are two bubbles every, what, 3.5 hours? You're talking about a 10% increase in ticket sales.

For all intents & purposes, "Selling the Bubbles" is effectively the same as "Choosing to make X Treasure Runs available", where X=the number of bubbles currently available.

I'm uncomfortable about the idea of selling bubbles (or any Treasure Runs) using an online ticket system though.

First, I doubt it would fly with GenCon.

Second, it opens it up to exploit by people who have fast connections/lots of friends, and load their carts with ALL the options available in order to improve their chances. But unlike people who load up on runs to play and then drop the ones they don't need, those individuals buying Treasure Bubbles would keep as much as they could in order to maximize profits.

Third, what if someone online doesn't understand what a Treasure Bubble is, and signs up to it thinking they're getting a True Dungeon run? (This already happens frequently with Grind.) You'll end up with some very unhappy potential players, and pressure to put them through the bubble slot anyways.

Fourth, if Bubbles suddenly are all being used for Max Treasure (since people who buy them will almost certainly be doing so with all available TEs, to maximize their profits) what does that do to the GenCon treasure supply? We've come close to draining the treasure supply in the past if I recall. It would really suck if adding Treasure Bubbles caused any problems with the amount of Treasure available for people who actually play the Dungeon. (I realize that there's ways to math this out, to keep it from happening... but any error could cause a huge backlash of unhappy players.)

Matt wrote: Here's a possible idea, at end of con auction off the extra treasure pulls/'unsold tickets/runs'. Let people put money where mouth is and offer a way to TD to get money and the treasure hawgs to get their extra treasure.

Hmmmm. That's an idea I could get behind.

Not only does it bypass the complications of selling "tickets", and completely avoid any potential for the Treasure to run out before the Con, but it means that anyone interested in this Auction can bid with some fore-knowledge of what the treasure mix is like for that given year.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Matt wrote: On the green with envy run 2 years ago which i had the pain/pleasure of being on. We planned nightmare and once in coaching room we selected hardcore once the dm/coaching laughing died down prior to our entry through the dungeon. Uncommons and lower aside from greed, pre planned ahead of time what builds and classes we all were playing.

Awesome run and one that would've been a pain if we had to explain to a random what we were upto. It took a while through forums to find our bodies and tweak builds as we surprised ourselves what could be min/maxed at green lvl.

We all made it room 7 and while we didn't win, some of us didn't die....

This sounds like a LOT of fun.

It was. It was a complete one off design and it was a lot of fun.

So many deaths

Bloody Epic was a Rares and lower version (allowing loot items) on the proposed epic difficulty. Calculating it seemed like basically nothing but critical slides would even hit so it was sidelined.

Bloody Nightmare WILL be a thing, at Whos Yer Con if nowhere else.

And if you need 2 more people for your group, I have 2 willing participants....

Watch my posts around Whos Yer Con time. I expect we will test run Bloody Nightmare there this coming year and I'd be glad to add you in given space

Rare tokens only, TEUR allowed COA allowed, all other tokens Rare or lower.

I'd potentially like to suggest swapping classes, just so everyone can play something new in addition to the challenge, not sure how that will go over.


If this continues to draw people I'm totally Ok with pushing out to 2 runs at WYC or GHC but I expect 1 run at GC will be the most the ticketing system will allow. Tickets are much easier to get at the small cons.

Incognito wrote:

Matt wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I'm back to selling the bubbles.

There are two bubbles every, what, 3.5 hours? You're talking about a 10% increase in ticket sales.

Which, by the way, is less than the 12% increase in the treasure cap from the first Nugget, with two more to go.

If you're worried about treasure deflation, you should oppose the Nuggets.

At this point i'd be all for keeping the CoGF and AoTF on continous reprint where it works out 1 is always avail as pyp. This keeps treasure enhancers in print and allows a usable path to the CoA. Helps build a bridge on have and have nots regarding treasure. That way if someone wants to spend the money and time collecting they can get there and not be shut out. Adding the IS: nugget is just pushing that bridge wider and longer.

Here's a possible idea, at end of con auction off the extra treasure pulls/'unsold tickets/runs'. Let people put money where mouth is and offer a way to TD to get money and the treasure hawgs to get their extra treasure.

That seems reasonable.

The big question (which only Jeff knows) is whether he needs the influx of revenue generated from a new UR Treasure Enhancer. Or whether the amount generated from a reprinted CoGF/AoTF will be sufficient (cause you probably won't see people like jedibcg and Mike Steele buying 10 of those).

Agreed, I think reprints would bring in a lot less revenue. A continuing reprint cycle would bring less and less revenue, especially if people knew they were going to be reprinted again.

Matt wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: Reprints would definitely encourage me to get enough to build up to 10 CoA, but never build or buy TE again, unless a new one was released.

A continual rotation including

AoTF
RoR
CoGF

adding in the 3 new ioun stones

Would be a pretty solid rotation. It would give players access to multiple URTE tokens and keep the CoA attainable. It will be interesting to see if the new Ioun Stones are added to the CoA recipies or if they are part of a new Legendary. Simplicity says Option 1 so CoA stays relatively simple to craft but Option 2 allows the reduction of slots in the future.

Both seem good, not sure you can support both options tho without having effectively 2 recipies for 2 different legendary TE tokens that are effectively the same recipe which would just be confusing

I'd say keep with option 1 and just have the new IS (if we have to have the damn things) count as 1 point like AotF does. Wishful thinking would be if AoTF/CoGF don't see reprint to errata CoA that it counts as the new IS. That protects older players who invested in it while at same time leaving a viable path to it to encourage sales and crafting towards the CoA to 'functionally' get the out of print treasure enhancers.

I don't like the idea of errata on the CoA to include the new Ioun Stones. It was specifically suggested on the CoA to cover ANY URTE and was specifically NOT written that way.

I'd be Ok with the CoA recipe moving AoTF to 2 and adding the new Ioun Stone at 1 (and doing the same each time a token goes OOP maybe) but not actually counting the stone in the CoA

But that's where the complication comes in, it doesn't count the tokens you are using as part of the final product.