TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

Cavor wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
If I want to run a team of 6 and not include other players because it gives me the best play experience I should not be penalized for buying all 10 tickets and only bringing 6 people.

If I buy a run of 10 people and 2 of my party members end up sick with food poisoning Saturday night and miss the Sunday morning run I should not be penalized. I should also not be required to fill those spaces with people my group of 8 players do not know if we do not want to.

*and yes, I did have 2 people miss a run because of food poisoning from the food trucks 2 years ago. It was horrible and they felt awful about missing the run*

Ok, I'm curious now, why do you feel that adding other players to your group makes you "penalized"? I know several of you feel this way, I am just amazed by it, because it is contrary to the entire spirit of Gencon.

Also, why do people feel that others getting treasure hurts you? TD tokens are worth exactly zero, they are chits for a role playing game. We buy them to support TD.

Ways adding players can turn out badly

They insist on playing a lower level of difficulty.
They make a fuss about class selection even though they are not nearly as prepared to play that class
They don't work well with an established team. (Yes, that one can cut both ways)
They lack synergistic tokens and refuse the loan of said tokens, depriving the party of treasure and hit points.
Coaching room chaos from very last minute additions.
And probably a few I haven't thought of.

I've been in good pugs, I've been in bad pugs. I prefer pre planned groups. It makes life a lot simpler.

Cavor wrote: Ok, I'm curious now, why do you feel that adding other players to your group makes you "penalized"? I know several of you feel this way, I am just amazed by it, because it is contrary to the entire spirit of Gencon.

Replying from my own experiences, not Arcanist's, but here's some possibilities:

* Because I can get claustrophobic/experience sensory overload occasionally. When there's too many people all around me, in a tight space, and all moving and bumping into me, it makes it almost impossible to think, and I start looking for an exit. This really cuts down on my enjoyment of a $56 dungeon!
(Luckily this is a very rare thing for me. I've gotta be pretty sleep deprived before I start having bad reactions to tight paces/too many people.)

* Because I have auditory sensory issues. If too many people are talking at once - or just making noise at the same time - I can't track them. With only 4 other people, I can be pretty sure I'll be able to track. More than that, and I'm okay as long as people are polite and take turns talking, or get my attention first. once it's up to 10 people, the odds of me hearing anything relevant are very low.

* Because there's some folks I really like running with, who have problems with the above, or have other difficulties which make it hard to run in large groups. And in order to run with them - people who I specifically go to GenCon to see! - we need to control our group size and/or composition.

* Because I cut my teeth on the 6-man TD experience back in 2003, where it was an accomplishment to make it alive to the 5th room, let alone 7th... and I love recreating that adrenaline rush.

* Because I've been in groups where I'm the only apparent female player, and been completely blocked out of any discussion regarding how to solve anything. (Eventually, I stopped talking with the guys who refused to even acknowledge my presence, and let them fail the puzzle rooms. That was possibly my worst PUG ever.) I've heard similar happen to many female players who do PUGs.

There's also possibilities like:

* My friends and I are all all "Gamer-Size-Plus" gentlemen, and fitting 10 of us in a small room is difficult at the best of times, and potentially dangerous in the dark with obstacles and/or startling special effects.

* I'm in a wheelchair/scooter, and I need extra space around me. Plus, I hate running with strangers who assume my disability means they can ignore me in a run, or block my way to the combat table and then blame me when we run out of time.

* I'm quite anti-social, and just don't like people. I've got a number of friends who tolerate me, but throw me in a group with strangers, and I get quickly annoyed, and voice my displeasure freely. Why would I want to subject others to my delightful personality when I can buy out the full run for me & my friends?

* I've had a bad experience in my past and being around strangers in the dark - especially one who might grab me unexpectedly or shout an order at me - can trigger PTSD flashbacks

* My friends and i want to create a neat experience where we use only Common & Uncommon tokens / play in character / dress up as superheroes for the run / equip only a single dagger each and wear no armour / speak in rhyme the entire run / pretend we're all Zombies ... and we don't want a WaitList person to join us and break the magic.

There's lots of reasons.

Raven wrote: There's also possibilities like:

* My friends and I are all all "Gamer-Size-Plus" gentlemen, and fitting 10 of us in a small room is difficult at the best of times, and potentially dangerous in the dark with obstacles and/or startling special effects.

* I'm in a wheelchair/scooter, and I need extra space around me. Plus, I hate running with strangers who assume my disability means they can ignore me in a run, or block my way to the combat table and then blame me when we run out of time.

* I'm quite anti-social, and just don't like people. I've got a number of friends who tolerate me, but throw me in a group with strangers, and I get quickly annoyed, and voice my displeasure freely. Why would I want to subject others to my delightful personality when I can buy out the full run for me & my friends?

* I've had a bad experience in my past and being around strangers in the dark - especially one who might grab me unexpectedly or shout an order at me - can trigger PTSD flashbacks

* My friends and i want to create a neat experience where we use only Common & Uncommon tokens / play in character / dress up as superheroes for the run / equip only a single dagger each and wear no armour / speak in rhyme the entire run / pretend we're all Zombies ... and we don't want a WaitList person to join us and break the magic.

There's lots of reasons.

* The stereotypical gamer has below-average social skills and below-average hygiene. So on average, adding a random gamer to your party is more likely to be a negative experience than a positive one.

Harlax wrote:

Cavor wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
If I want to run a team of 6 and not include other players because it gives me the best play experience I should not be penalized for buying all 10 tickets and only bringing 6 people.

If I buy a run of 10 people and 2 of my party members end up sick with food poisoning Saturday night and miss the Sunday morning run I should not be penalized. I should also not be required to fill those spaces with people my group of 8 players do not know if we do not want to.

*and yes, I did have 2 people miss a run because of food poisoning from the food trucks 2 years ago. It was horrible and they felt awful about missing the run*

Ok, I'm curious now, why do you feel that adding other players to your group makes you "penalized"? I know several of you feel this way, I am just amazed by it, because it is contrary to the entire spirit of Gencon.

Also, why do people feel that others getting treasure hurts you? TD tokens are worth exactly zero, they are chits for a role playing game. We buy them to support TD.

Ways adding players can turn out badly

They insist on playing a lower level of difficulty.
They make a fuss about class selection even though they are not nearly as prepared to play that class
They don't work well with an established team. (Yes, that one can cut both ways)
They lack synergistic tokens and refuse the loan of said tokens, depriving the party of treasure and hit points.
Coaching room chaos from very last minute additions.
And probably a few I haven't thought of.

I've been in good pugs, I've been in bad pugs. I prefer preplanned groups. It makes life a lot simpler.

Sums up my history pretty well Harlax. Some years i'm fortunate financial/planning wise to buy out a run and have a full 10 members. Other years all i can do is pug due to scheduling/money issues.

I ghosted for the 1st and 2nd time ever this year, my 10th person bailed on me as we were in the coaching room. I had no idea of the changes to ghost this year, i honestly would've taken the boosters as i have zero spare treasure enhancer's if i known that was an option. However no way would i've taken a random, not when i had classes/difficulty and group dynamics figured out.

I agree, most of this boils down to the issue that where the rewards are worth a measurable amount more then the cost of tickets we have an issue that need's resolved. I really, really rather find a way that doesn't involve raising cost of td tickets due to rewards being 'worth it'.

I'd like the waitlist a bit better the option of saying slot open in run with Difficulty X and classes Y and Z open. Might help a little, definitely couldn't hurt at this point as a option for those of us worried about 'dumbing down' the run due to a random.

Matt wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Cavor wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
If I want to run a team of 6 and not include other players because it gives me the best play experience I should not be penalized for buying all 10 tickets and only bringing 6 people.

If I buy a run of 10 people and 2 of my party members end up sick with food poisoning Saturday night and miss the Sunday morning run I should not be penalized. I should also not be required to fill those spaces with people my group of 8 players do not know if we do not want to.

*and yes, I did have 2 people miss a run because of food poisoning from the food trucks 2 years ago. It was horrible and they felt awful about missing the run*

Ok, I'm curious now, why do you feel that adding other players to your group makes you "penalized"? I know several of you feel this way, I am just amazed by it, because it is contrary to the entire spirit of Gencon.

Also, why do people feel that others getting treasure hurts you? TD tokens are worth exactly zero, they are chits for a role playing game. We buy them to support TD.

Ways adding players can turn out badly

They insist on playing a lower level of difficulty.
They make a fuss about class selection even though they are not nearly as prepared to play that class
They don't work well with an established team. (Yes, that one can cut both ways)
They lack synergistic tokens and refuse the loan of said tokens, depriving the party of treasure and hit points.
Coaching room chaos from very last minute additions.
And probably a few I haven't thought of.

I've been in good pugs, I've been in bad pugs. I prefer preplanned groups. It makes life a lot simpler.

Sums up my history pretty well Harlax. Some years i'm fortunate financial/planning wise to buy out a run and have a full 10 members. Other years all i can do is pug due to scheduling/money issues.

I ghosted for the 1st and 2nd time ever this year, my 10th person bailed on me as we were in the coaching room. I had no idea of the changes to ghost this year, i honestly would've taken the boosters as i have zero spare treasure enhancer's if i known that was an option. However no way would i've taken a random, not when i had classes/difficulty and group dynamics figured out.

I agree, most of this boils down to the issue that where the rewards are worth a measurable amount more then the cost of tickets we have an issue that need's resolved. I really, really rather find a way that doesn't involve raising cost of td tickets due to rewards being 'worth it'.

I'd like the waitlist a bit better the option of saying slot open in run with Difficulty X and classes Y and Z open. Might help a little, definitely couldn't hurt at this point as a option for those of us worried about 'dumbing down' the run due to a random.

And it's no fun forcing someone who is utterly unprepared for Nightmare into certain death.

My main issue with a PUG player is the interruption to my group dynamic. My crew knows eachother, we come to GC to play games together, we do TD together, it's our thing.

If someone gets sick and misses the run I don't want other people making them feel bad for missing because "we got stuck with this total asshole who messed everything up"

It's not guaranteed to happen but if I'm shelling out $540 to have the run be perfect for my group I shouldn't be forced to take someone random.

Harlax wrote:

Matt wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Cavor wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:
If I want to run a team of 6 and not include other players because it gives me the best play experience I should not be penalized for buying all 10 tickets and only bringing 6 people.

If I buy a run of 10 people and 2 of my party members end up sick with food poisoning Saturday night and miss the Sunday morning run I should not be penalized. I should also not be required to fill those spaces with people my group of 8 players do not know if we do not want to.

*and yes, I did have 2 people miss a run because of food poisoning from the food trucks 2 years ago. It was horrible and they felt awful about missing the run*

Ok, I'm curious now, why do you feel that adding other players to your group makes you "penalized"? I know several of you feel this way, I am just amazed by it, because it is contrary to the entire spirit of Gencon.

Also, why do people feel that others getting treasure hurts you? TD tokens are worth exactly zero, they are chits for a role playing game. We buy them to support TD.

Ways adding players can turn out badly

They insist on playing a lower level of difficulty.
They make a fuss about class selection even though they are not nearly as prepared to play that class
They don't work well with an established team. (Yes, that one can cut both ways)
They lack synergistic tokens and refuse the loan of said tokens, depriving the party of treasure and hit points.
Coaching room chaos from very last minute additions.
And probably a few I haven't thought of.

I've been in good pugs, I've been in bad pugs. I prefer preplanned groups. It makes life a lot simpler.

Sums up my history pretty well Harlax. Some years i'm fortunate financial/planning wise to buy out a run and have a full 10 members. Other years all i can do is pug due to scheduling/money issues.

I ghosted for the 1st and 2nd time ever this year, my 10th person bailed on me as we were in the coaching room. I had no idea of the changes to ghost this year, i honestly would've taken the boosters as i have zero spare treasure enhancer's if i known that was an option. However no way would i've taken a random, not when i had classes/difficulty and group dynamics figured out.

I agree, most of this boils down to the issue that where the rewards are worth a measurable amount more then the cost of tickets we have an issue that need's resolved. I really, really rather find a way that doesn't involve raising cost of td tickets due to rewards being 'worth it'.

I'd like the waitlist a bit better the option of saying slot open in run with Difficulty X and classes Y and Z open. Might help a little, definitely couldn't hurt at this point as a option for those of us worried about 'dumbing down' the run due to a random.

And it's no fun forcing someone who is utterly unprepared for Nightmare into certain death.

Agreed, but as a no risk/potential gain option here i give credit to whoever posted the idea of someone like me who had a person bail (literally in the coaching room this year...). To give up ticket but know that waitlist is going to state that slot open, hardcore classes xyz are open. I get my money back or equivalent in boosters. Someone gets to play off the waitlist and i'm not sacrificing xp/loot as the random knows before coming in what the terms are. Enough of us vets play off the waitlist that i think at the min this is a low risk and potential moderate reward option here.

It's not perfect and i wouldn't want it to be forced but knowing it's a option might help open a few tickets here and there from those worried about a random forcing the run down or class debate.

I'd be all for the option to offer the open slot to someone on the wait list as long as they agree to the character and difficulty options. It's just forcing it that would upset me.

I run a group similar to Arcanist (and we almost never ahree...lol) except it is a bit bigger and I like filling all ten slots. I too attempt to have that group have all 4 dungeons. But when I have empty spots I go looking for new the want to try TD. Not suggesting anyone do this because that is what I like, you do what you like. You can look on the GC forums and see my recruitment attempts. I get flooded with requests that I usually only takes a day till I get my spots filled. And a few more days working out logistics eith these folks. This year I took 11 first timers into the dungeon, it would have been 13 but I had 2 no shows Sunday morning. Some were friends that haven't played but most 8 out 11 were folks I had never met. I hope they all had a good time I did. I also played with a pug group had a blast. Played with a group of never played before that was well organized and I hope to play with again next year. I got dragged aling my friends coworker group because he had no shows (not as much fun because I was tired). Again that is how I like to play and I am NOT dictating that anyone else should play that way. I don't want to get penalized though when someone no shows on me more than I already am, because I did want to play with that person.

I have agreed with Brad on this for sometime. I don't know what state the cave is currently in. I just don't want to be too deep in before we know we are too deep ti be stable. I am glad others do realize that at least there can be a point toi deep.

Cavor wrote: Ok, I'm curious now, why do you feel that adding other players to your group makes you "penalized"? I know several of you feel this way, I am just amazed by it, because it is contrary to the entire spirit of Gencon.

Because Pugs are a craps shoot. I've had some great run with randoms and some horrible runs. Now that only matters so much if you can book an entire run since you can control who you play with. But if you go to the effort of buying out a slot and controlling your group and then you get stuck with an unknown who can change things on you I can totally see why people would be upset.

Cavor wrote: Also, why do people feel that others getting treasure hurts you? TD tokens are worth exactly zero, they are chits for a role playing game. We buy them to support TD.

I dont personally care what treasure other people are getting, I do care if it looks like we are trending towards an unstable token economy since TD depends on the stability of that economy to keep going.

Picc wrote: I dont personally care what treasure other people are getting, I do care if it looks like we are trending towards an unstable token economy since TD depends on the stability of that economy to keep going.

That's another thing I don't get, what is a "Stable Token Economy"? If by this you mean preserving the resale value of tokens on ebay, why do we care? In the long run all of everyone's tokens will be worth exactly zero.

TD should not set policy to protect someone who is buying large amounts of tokens in the hope of making a profit. They should do whatever they can to encourage and reward people that support TD through token purchases.

Cavor wrote:

Picc wrote: I dont personally care what treasure other people are getting, I do care if it looks like we are trending towards an unstable token economy since TD depends on the stability of that economy to keep going.

That's another thing I don't get, what is a "Stable Token Economy"? If by this you mean preserving the resale value of tokens on ebay, why do we care? In the long run all of everyone's tokens will be worth exactly zero.

TD should not set policy to protect someone who is buying large amounts of tokens in the hope of making a profit. They should do whatever they can to encourage and reward people that support TD through token purchases.

In the long run we're all dead. In the mean time some of us want to game.

Having a secondary market for tokens does encourage and reward people who make token purchases.

It seems quite likely that there would be much, much less token purchases (and the adherent negative effects to TD from reduced revenue) if there was no stability in the value of tokens.