TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Raven wrote: I agree with that last comment, Wade.
I shudder at the proposed solution tho, because waiting for the market to sort itself out will probably mean (as you pointed out) fewer slots available, increased ticket cost, and lower value for thousands of players who are not trying to game the system. That can't be good for TD's longevity!

I think you are right, just waiting for the market to sort itself out could take years with a lot of people feeling negatively about the game in the interim.

I am glad we are trying to find a solution to the problems, and I also think that right now, some change is definitely neceasary.

We should work on coming up with a solution that is fairest for all that:

I am a little less worried about fair, than about practical, but I agree on principle.

Also, I don't think we need to come up with a single solution. Brainstorming multiple possible solutions with their pro's and con's is good too, because in the end it's True Dungeon's job to select and implement (or not) whichever strategy will work best for their short- and long-term goals.

That said, you put together an excellent list of what a good solution should do:

Allows for people not to be hit too hard by late no shows

Allows for the occasional different run (solo, double down) while not making them completely cost prohibitive

Ensures that the maximum number of people who want to experience TD have that opportunity. This would most likely require we limit the value of the retainer.

I'd like to add:
Gives good value to players who financially support TD by buying tokens, including Treasure Enhancers.

What about a sliding scale, if you have 1 retainer, their max treasure pulls is X.if you have 2 retainers, their max treasure draws is 2X-Y, etc?
Or just make it simple and say you can only get X treasure pulls from all your retainers, regardless of how many you have?

Interesting idea. Still leaves the loophole of me buying 5 extra slots and saying that each Retainer is connected to one of my live friends... But it'd quickly go into the realm of diminishing returns after 5 Retainers.

The second idea I'm less fond of... it could get complicated if I've got a CoGF on "my" retainer, and you've got a CoA on "your" retainer, and we're told we get a max of 20 Treasure chips between us for those retainers.

Brad Mortensen wrote: May I say something impolite? The root problem isn't farming. That's a symptom. The problem is that the value of the loot is close to or exceeding the cost of the ticket.

I agree completely.

Cavor wrote: True Dungeon is a game played at a game convention. The only sane goal is for the maximum number of people to have fun. Anything that reduces this should be discouraged. Anyone that buys a TD ticket and turns it in should have the opportunity to get treasure and run rewards.

Here are the changes I would make given everything I read in this thread:

1. Fill all groups to 10 players if anyone wants to play (wait list, etc.)
2. Allow ghosting/retainer if no player wants the slot
3. Allow the purchasing of unsold slots/runs including rewards except xp.
4. Sell 20 treasure tokens for 60$ to anyone that wants to buy

Not everyone WANTS to have 10 players in their group.
Many people buy full runs to double down (10 tickets, 5 players) as it's seen (accurately) as a more enjoyable experience
MANY runs end up with 1-2 players missing the run and current TD rules state that a single player can overrule the rest of the party on raising the difficulty on the run, potentially costing 8-9 players XP and completion tokens.

Why should my purchase of an unsold run not grant me exp? If I run the run I should get EXP for it?

Cavor wrote:

1. Fill all groups to 10 players if anyone wants to play (wait list, etc.)
2. Allow ghosting/retainer if no player wants the slot
3. Allow the purchasing of unsold slots/runs including rewards except xp.
4. Sell 20 treasure tokens for 60$ to anyone that wants to buy

The last one seems highly undervalued, and also, not everyone has invested the time and energy/money to be able to get treasure tokens at that rate. I certainly haven't.

When is a run considered "unsold?"

Kirk Bauer wrote: If the treasure mix at GHC matches the mix at GenCon then I'd be worried, but we don't know that it will. Obviously the treasure mix at WYC2016 wasn't nearly as good as GenCon's.

Well WYC 2016 was GC 2015's mix. I am willing to bet GHC2016 will be GC 2016 and WYC 2017. But I am just guessing.

Raven wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Raven wrote: I agree with that last comment, Wade.
I shudder at the proposed solution tho, because waiting for the market to sort itself out will probably mean (as you pointed out) fewer slots available, increased ticket cost, and lower value for thousands of players who are not trying to game the system. That can't be good for TD's longevity!

I think you are right, just waiting for the market to sort itself out could take years with a lot of people feeling negatively about the game in the interim.

I am glad we are trying to find a solution to the problems, and I also think that right now, some change is definitely neceasary.

We should work on coming up with a solution that is fairest for all that:

I am a little less worried about fair, than about practical, but I agree on principle.

Also, I don't think we need to come up with a single solution. Brainstorming multiple possible solutions with their pro's and con's is good too, because in the end it's True Dungeon's job to select and implement (or not) whichever strategy will work best for their short- and long-term goals.

That said, you put together an excellent list of what a good solution should do:

Allows for people not to be hit too hard by late no shows

Allows for the occasional different run (solo, double down) while not making them completely cost prohibitive

Ensures that the maximum number of people who want to experience TD have that opportunity. This would most likely require we limit the value of the retainer.

I'd like to add:
Gives good value to players who financially support TD by buying tokens, including Treasure Enhancers.

What about a sliding scale, if you have 1 retainer, their max treasure pulls is X.if you have 2 retainers, their max treasure draws is 2X-Y, etc?
Or just make it simple and say you can only get X treasure pulls from all your retainers, regardless of how many you have?

Interesting idea. Still leaves the loophole of me buying 5 extra slots and saying that each Retainer is connected to one of my live friends... But it'd quickly go into the realm of diminishing returns after 5 Retainers.

The second idea I'm less fond of... it could get complicated if I've got a CoGF on "my" retainer, and you've got a CoA on "your" retainer, and we're told we get a max of 20 Treasure chips between us for those retainers.

Neither of those solutions fixes the Zombie retainer issue.

X actual players, 10-X warm bodies who are just there to protect getting full loot.

The proposed solution actually encourages hiring people to come on a ghosted run and have them do nothing for 2 hours. Cool for people who might want to see the dungeon, not cool if this results in people with a negative view of the game. *I walked around with some dude who paid me $20 to stand in the corner while he played a game for 2 hours to protect his loot, was kinda boring honestly*

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: If the treasure mix at GHC matches the mix at GenCon then I'd be worried, but we don't know that it will. Obviously the treasure mix at WYC2016 wasn't nearly as good as GenCon's.

Well WYC 2016 was GC 2015's mix. I am willing to bet GHC2016 will be GC 2016 and WYC 2017. But I am just guessing.

I did hear that there wasn't much treasure left after GenCon, so Jeff might need to create new treasure, so it could be different if he wanted it to be.

I didn't draw at WYC this year; did it have 2015 monster trophies in it?

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: If the treasure mix at GHC matches the mix at GenCon then I'd be worried, but we don't know that it will. Obviously the treasure mix at WYC2016 wasn't nearly as good as GenCon's.

Well WYC 2016 was GC 2015's mix. I am willing to bet GHC2016 will be GC 2016 and WYC 2017. But I am just guessing.

I did hear that there wasn't much treasure left after GenCon, so Jeff might need to create new treasure, so it could be different if he wanted it to be.

I didn't draw at WYC this year; did it have 2015 monster trophies in it?

Yes it did. The break down for WYC matched my GC numbers pretty closely (fewer draws but close percentages).

Cavor wrote: True Dungeon is a game played at a game convention. The only sane goal is for the maximum number of people to have fun. Anything that reduces this should be discouraged. Anyone that buys a TD ticket and turns it in should have the opportunity to get treasure and run rewards.

Here are the changes I would make given everything I read in this thread:

1. Fill all groups to 10 players if anyone wants to play (wait list, etc.)
2. Allow ghosting/retainer if no player wants the slot
3. Allow the purchasing of unsold slots/runs including rewards except xp.
4. Sell 20 treasure tokens for 60$ to anyone that wants to buy

1. So they can convert my carefully planned nightmare run to normal? No thanks.
2 & 3. More coaching room confusion and complication.
4. Based on this years mix the price should be higher.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote:

Raven wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Raven wrote: I agree with that last comment, Wade.
I shudder at the proposed solution tho, because waiting for the market to sort itself out will probably mean (as you pointed out) fewer slots available, increased ticket cost, and lower value for thousands of players who are not trying to game the system. That can't be good for TD's longevity!

I think you are right, just waiting for the market to sort itself out could take years with a lot of people feeling negatively about the game in the interim.

I am glad we are trying to find a solution to the problems, and I also think that right now, some change is definitely neceasary.

We should work on coming up with a solution that is fairest for all that:

I am a little less worried about fair, than about practical, but I agree on principle.

Also, I don't think we need to come up with a single solution. Brainstorming multiple possible solutions with their pro's and con's is good too, because in the end it's True Dungeon's job to select and implement (or not) whichever strategy will work best for their short- and long-term goals.

That said, you put together an excellent list of what a good solution should do:

Allows for people not to be hit too hard by late no shows

Allows for the occasional different run (solo, double down) while not making them completely cost prohibitive

Ensures that the maximum number of people who want to experience TD have that opportunity. This would most likely require we limit the value of the retainer.

I'd like to add:
Gives good value to players who financially support TD by buying tokens, including Treasure Enhancers.

What about a sliding scale, if you have 1 retainer, their max treasure pulls is X.if you have 2 retainers, their max treasure draws is 2X-Y, etc?
Or just make it simple and say you can only get X treasure pulls from all your retainers, regardless of how many you have?

Interesting idea. Still leaves the loophole of me buying 5 extra slots and saying that each Retainer is connected to one of my live friends... But it'd quickly go into the realm of diminishing returns after 5 Retainers.

The second idea I'm less fond of... it could get complicated if I've got a CoGF on "my" retainer, and you've got a CoA on "your" retainer, and we're told we get a max of 20 Treasure chips between us for those retainers.

Neither of those solutions fixes the Zombie retainer issue.

X actual players, 10-X warm bodies who are just there to protect getting full loot.

The proposed solution actually encourages hiring people to come on a ghosted run and have them do nothing for 2 hours. Cool for people who might want to see the dungeon, not cool if this results in people with a negative view of the game. *I walked around with some dude who paid me $20 to stand in the corner while he played a game for 2 hours to protect his loot, was kinda boring honestly*

You are right, but I don't honestly see how we could accurately separate that from those who those who outfit their whole group.

Also, maybe one or two of those zombis ends up saying, the game would be fun if I was with my friends, let's try to play.

I don't think there are that many people with that much free time at gencon.

It could be done, but not as easily than just running with 9 empty slots

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Cavor wrote:

1. Fill all groups to 10 players if anyone wants to play (wait list, etc.)
2. Allow ghosting/retainer if no player wants the slot
3. Allow the purchasing of unsold slots/runs including rewards except xp.
4. Sell 20 treasure tokens for 60$ to anyone that wants to buy

The last one seems highly undervalued, and also, not everyone has invested the time and energy/money to be able to get treasure tokens at that rate. I certainly haven't.

When is a run considered "unsold?"

That;s essentially a CoA at level 6.
CoA 13 + Dungeon 3 + Level Six 1 + Ioun Stone 2 = 19
Ticket cost $54

So it'd be
Go to TD HQ
Show URTE/COA
Pay for X virtual runs
Recieve treasure (but no EXP or completion tokens) for the virtual runs.
It'd probably need to be setup where you could buy no more than X virtual runs per day or per con to keep people from buying single slot virutal runs with URTE to cover only 1 person.

It's been suggested multiple times. It's one of the solutions to the *buying out runs purely to farm treasure* but I'm not sure if it would open up more dungeon runs or just result in larger quantities of treasure being distributed.

$54 + 2 hours of time in the dungeon means I generally do 2-4 runs a day.
$54 = 19 treasure means I can buy as many as I feel like to gamble on the treasure pull box.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: If the treasure mix at GHC matches the mix at GenCon then I'd be worried, but we don't know that it will. Obviously the treasure mix at WYC2016 wasn't nearly as good as GenCon's.

Well WYC 2016 was GC 2015's mix. I am willing to bet GHC2016 will be GC 2016 and WYC 2017. But I am just guessing.

I did hear that there wasn't much treasure left after GenCon, so Jeff might need to create new treasure, so it could be different if he wanted it to be.

I didn't draw at WYC this year; did it have 2015 monster trophies in it?

Yes on the trophies.