TOPIC: "Ghosting" a run for Treasure - Changed at GenCon?

jedibcg wrote: They don't cost TD retail value si yeah they probably still doing alright.

What if made this real simple I know I will get some push back on this but throwing out there none the less. For each ticket max number of ghosts is one at Gen Con. WYC & GHC have enough tickets at this time to allow less than 5. It would still allow double down runs but would end solo, 2, 3 and 4 man runs at Gen Con. Thoughts?

From a personal standpoint, I'd be okay with this because it would still support my DoubleDown runs.

But from a practical standpoint, it's only cutting the problem in half*, not solving it. If I wanted to take the treasure for 10 slots, I'd just buy out 2 runs, and run 5 ghosts/Retainers on each.

Unless you mean that a single player can only use a single spare bracelet as a Retainer? I guess that would prevent a single player from running 5 slots for Treasure... unless they bought all 10 slots, and recruited players who were okay with them collecting the extra Treasure at the end.

jedibcg wrote: Giving an alternate suggesting to a ghosting problem. Limit the number of ghost. I personally like it better than Mike's suggestion.

If you limit the overall number of ghosts, but don't have rules for per-person ghosts, you'll end up with situations where Bob and Joe both show up to a run with 3 spare tickets, and are told "I'm sorry, you can only run with a max of 5 un-filled slots" and no good way to determine who has to eat the loss.


*Note: Cutting the problem in half is probably better than no solution at all.

jedibcg wrote: Are we worried about treasure or tickets?

I'm worried about people farming for treasure taking up useful slots and decreasing the number of new and old players who can enjoy the game. Perhaps it just wouldn't happen, but it seems somebody could make several thousand dollars if they put their mind to it.

jedibcg wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

jedibcg wrote: They don't cost TD retail value si yeah they probably still doing alright.

What if made this real simple I know I will get some push back on this but throwing out there none the less. For each ticket max number of ghosts is one at Gen Con. WYC & GHC have enough tickets at this time to allow less than 5. It would still allow double down runs but would end solo, 2, 3 and 4 man runs at Gen Con. Thoughts?

I think it's better for everyone to make it simple. Any number of Ghost players, X number of sealed token bags for each ghost player.

That doesn't solve the issue of preventing someone from buying lots of tickets and ghosting them all and thus preventing them from getting in the hands of real players.

So what problem are you attempting to 'solve,' Mike?

BC, I'm trying to solve the problem of people buying ghost tickets in order to get the treasure coins and completion tokens. I think a solution along these lines would do that. A strict limit on the number of treasure coins a ghost player can get might work also, if the limit is set correctly.

Sorry I should have been clearer with my question.

Are we worried about there being less tickets because of ghosting or are we worried about extra treasure that would be out there because of ghosting.


If we are really worried about tickets and not the treasure then the best (though least favorite) is to cut down the number of ghosts, not just make it less desirable because as I said before if the new of treasure enchancers continue to increase then bodies will not be a problem. You hire a body for 2 hours, there are plenty of people that you could borrow to run through the dungeon at minimal cost. So you haven't made more tickets, you have just made farming less desirable, but still very doable to turn a profit.

If it is treasure that you are actually worried about then that has to be tackled another way because like I just pointed out bodies are easy to get if you want them. There would be no difference between a body and ghost for getting treasure under this model either. Though at least limiting ghost does mean more people see the dungeon even if for the wrong reasons.

Does that make sense?

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Are we worried about treasure or tickets?

I'm worried about people farming for treasure taking up useful slots and decreasing the number of new and old players who can enjoy the game. Perhaps it just wouldn't happen, but it seems somebody could make several thousand dollars if they put their mind to it.

Sorry but you are fine with still having "solo/2/3/4/5-man run, as long as it remains occasional." I don't think we can define easily what is occasionally and who gets to do them. Is that less than 5 man run an occasional one or is it farming. Again I am only making this suggestion for Gen Con where tickets have become a premium.

I guess both could be a problem. I liked the 5% specials in the treasure mix this year, but I do think the specials should have been 4% more mundane (low-level transmutes, trade goods, maybe something fun like the Underduck of Doom) and only 1% UR and higher. The mix seemed to be more like 2.5% UR and higher (possibly about 1% relics). With that mix I think there is too much value in the treasure boxes, especially with even more treasure-enhancers this year.

Additionally I'm concerned about farmers potentially taking up valuable slots that other players might enjoy. I don't care so much if there are players there because hopefully they might have fun and enjoy themselves.

My original proposal still stands; limit (but not eliminate) the benefits of ghosting players, while possibly finding a way to enable a limited amount of "treasure only" runs. I think this could solve both problems, and if done correctly wouldn't significantly affect people who want to do solo runs, for example.

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Are we worried about treasure or tickets?

I'm worried about people farming for treasure taking up useful slots and decreasing the number of new and old players who can enjoy the game. Perhaps it just wouldn't happen, but it seems somebody could make several thousand dollars if they put their mind to it.

Sorry but you are fine with still having "solo/2/3/4/5-man run, as long as it remains occasional." I don't think we can define easily what is occasionally and who gets to do them. Is that less than 5 man run an occasional one or is it farming. Again I am only making this suggestion for Gen Con where tickets have become a premium.

I don't think we have to define anything. We find a balance where it is still relatively affordable to do a solo run yet not profitable to ghost players solely for the treasure. In other words, if you want to do a whole dungeon run for yourself, and you buy 10 slots, your treasure draws plus completion tokens should not be worth more than what you spent.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: What does it hurt the game for an occasional person or group to run a solo/2/3/4 man run?

And to that point what happens if you have a group attending at GenCon and have 2 players who oversleep an early game time? Do you only get the treasure from 1 of them? Are you required to fill the second spot with a wait lister? Can they force you to drop the run to Normal even tho you bought out a full run specifically to do nightmare?

Unintended consequences abound.

Agreed, it has to be done carefully. And I don't think it is a problem for an occasional solo/2/3/4/5-man run, as long as it remains occasional.

But I do think something has to be done. With the new silver nugget, if ticket prices and treasure mix stays the same at GenCon 2017, for $560 I could get 190 treasure draws plus 20 completion tokens. Ignoring the completion tokens that's $3 per treasure draw. If treasure remains at say $5/ea then that's a $380 profit for two hours of your time. But if you did it just for the treasure then there are 9 people who didn't get to play and have fun (arguably 10 since you probably didn't really have fun at that point either).

Once this happens some number of times, whether live or through ghost run purchases without going through the dungeon at all, the value of treasure tokens will drop eventually.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote: Are we worried about treasure or tickets?

I'm worried about people farming for treasure taking up useful slots and decreasing the number of new and old players who can enjoy the game. Perhaps it just wouldn't happen, but it seems somebody could make several thousand dollars if they put their mind to it.

Sorry but you are fine with still having "solo/2/3/4/5-man run, as long as it remains occasional." I don't think we can define easily what is occasionally and who gets to do them. Is that less than 5 man run an occasional one or is it farming. Again I am only making this suggestion for Gen Con where tickets have become a premium.

I don't think we have to define anything. We find a balance where it is still relatively affordable to do a solo run yet not profitable to ghost players solely for the treasure. In other words, if you want to do a whole dungeon run for yourself, and you buy 10 slots, your treasure draws plus completion tokens should not be worth more than what you spent.

Kirk, I agree with that, except that the rewards for ghost players could be something like token packs or store credit instead of treasure coins and completion tokens. Or as you say set the treasure coins limit to where it doesn't turn a profit.

What about this?

Ghost players (?Retainers) can not collect treasure tokens (?3 only), XP, or completion tokens.
They receive one half (75%?) of ticket price in "Store Credit" to buy 10 packs, PYPs, etc. This covers any Con surcharge and such things.
They CAN equip items for the purposes if synergy, such as CoA, charm of synergy, (cabal set?) etc.
All TE tokens must be shown both before and after the run.

I realize this might make for more work for some, writing out gift certificates, etc.

Would that be enough to disincentivize ghosting, but make it possible if people want to do solo, double down or other different types of runs from time to time?

My concern is that some farmers use human ghosts. Treating imaginary ghosts differently from human ones isn't fair.

I'm just not sure how to tell them apart.

Note: "them" = human ghosts vs real players

I don't think this is an immediate problem, but it might become one. As it stands now, at GenCon 2017, I'll probably buy out quite a few runs and do at least two solo runs, both for the challenge and for the loot. I'll probably also do two newbie runs where I buy the tickets and keep the treasure, again both for the fun of introducing new players to the game and as a bonus I get a bunch of treasure. I don't think this is inherently bad nor am I in a hurry to restrict the loot I'll get

And at WYC I bought an entire empty run once the start time had passed and just collected the loot (although in retrospect I forgot to get completion tokens for it).

So if everybody is OK with it then I'll drop my suggestion to change anything