TOPIC: Ten Token Challenge

Ranger

Crown of iron will
Exalted creeper amulet
Blessed redoubt mail
Bracers of supreme archery
Io's +4 bow
Greater cloak of destiny
Boots of the four winds
Rod of 7 parts
Quiver of anointment
Golden Apple (or supreme ring if AoW effect is crappy)

+13 To-hit ranged
+11 damage
25 AC
11 fort
16 ref
11 will

Maybe drop bracers for ioun stone +2 saves...oh, if Eric is DM and I equip the golden apple, DEFINITELY up my saves.

Things to consider for this format:

1. Should using a RoSP voucher count as 1 token?

2. Should Druids and Rangers who equip exactly 2 pieces of the Eldritch set get 9 tokens instead of 10 (since they are getting to 5th level on 1 less token than any other class that equips those 2 pieces).

Matthew Hayward wrote: Things to consider for this format:

1. Should using a RoSP voucher count as 1 token?

2. Should Druids and Rangers who equip exactly 2 pieces of the Eldritch set get 9 tokens instead of 10 (since they are getting to 5th level on 1 less token than any other class that equips those 2 pieces).

1. No (but that does require you to use the RoSP as one of your 10 tokens).

2. No, because all 3 of the Eldritch items are very useful in Grind. RoSP provides excellent stat boosts. Boots provide a massive damage bonus. Ring provides a lot of elemental resistance. Each is useful by itself, let alone any potential set bonuses.

I don't grind, but if I had to do a 10-token challenge, here is my set-up:

Hat of Intellect
Mad Evoker's Charm
Charm of Avarice
Robe of the Archmage
Cloak of the Mage
Charm of Brooching
Greater Cloak of Destiny
Sniper Specs
Ring of Spell Storing
Boots of the Four Winds

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: 2. No, because all 3 of the Eldritch items are very useful in Grind. RoSP provides excellent stat boosts. Boots provide a massive damage bonus. Ring provides a lot of elemental resistance. Each is useful by itself, let alone any potential set bonuses.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just pointing out that getting to level 5 is usually pretty good (especially for spellcasters), and as it stands Druids and Rangers who equip 2 of the 3 extremely good eldritch items get a level boost the other classes don't.

Maybe instead you could play with a house rule that any 2 eldritch items gives the level boost in Grind to any class, or it gives a level boost to no class.

A limited format is dramatically less interesting to me when its design (explicit or implicit) favors one set of classes over another unduly. For example, in the "0 token" format clearly Wizard, Monk, Druid, and Cleric are absolutely awesome, and the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue are terrible (I guess Ranger can read some spells?), Bard is pretty good.


For me, at 10 token build limit, the implication of Druids and Rangers getting a level boost out of the Eldrich 2 piece at no downside makes the format unappealing to me, just as I imagine others would find it unappealing if I made a Wizard friendly: "Max STR 22, Max AC 20" format. It's close though, around 15 tokens I'd stop caring, because around there I think the Eldritch 3 piece probably makes the cut on most builds anyway.

bpsymington wrote: I don't grind, but if I had to do a 10-token challenge, here is my set-up:

Hat of Intellect
Mad Evoker's Charm
Charm of Avarice
Robe of the Archmage
Cloak of the Mage
Charm of Brooching
Greater Cloak of Destiny
Sniper Specs
Ring of Spell Storing
Boots of the Four Winds

CoA?

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: 2. No, because all 3 of the Eldritch items are very useful in Grind. RoSP provides excellent stat boosts. Boots provide a massive damage bonus. Ring provides a lot of elemental resistance. Each is useful by itself, let alone any potential set bonuses.

I'm not disputing that. I'm just pointing out that getting to level 5 is usually pretty good (especially for spellcasters), and as it stands Druids and Rangers who equip 2 of the 3 extremely good eldritch items get a level boost the other classes don't.

Maybe instead you could play with a house rule that any 2 eldritch items gives the level boost in Grind to any class, or it gives a level boost to no class.

A limited format is dramatically less interesting to me when its design (explicit or implicit) favors one set of classes over another unduly. For example, in the "0 token" format clearly Wizard, Monk, Druid, and Cleric are absolutely awesome, and the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue are terrible (I guess Ranger can read some spells?), Bard is pretty good.


For me, at 10 token build limit, the implication of Druids and Rangers getting a level boost out of the Eldrich 2 piece at no downside makes the format unappealing to me, just as I imagine others would find it unappealing if I made a Wizard friendly: "Max STR 22, Max AC 20" format. It's close though, around 15 tokens I'd stop caring, because around there I think the Eldritch 3 piece probably makes the cut on most builds anyway.

But thats a problem with the design of the set itself then not the format. Druids and rangers always have an unfair advantage using it, does it put you off in the normal dungeon?

Its powerful for them sure, is that any different from any other powerful clas restricted token interaction.

Hyperbolically Id also like to see gloves of flying fist banned from this new limited format since they give monks an unfair advantage in terms of building to cover ranged/melee with less tokens. Wizards to since some of their UR armors/cloaks are balanced around the idea they just have less options for armor and thats OP as heck in a limited token environment.

Every class is going to have advantages/disadvantages when you change the environment. IMO thats what makes a probably one time limited format fun. Whats the point if we try to legislate out those changes before the format ever happens. If all were doing is saving coaching time why not just go with pregenerated stats.

Since we would be going in as a group, and only using what we have rather than a dream list, here is what our Barbarian would bring:

1. RoSP
2. BotFW
3. SRoEC
4. Surtr’s Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
5. +3 Death Cleaver (potions of jumping readily available)
6. Blessed Redoubt Mail
7. Redoubt Shield
8. Redoubt Helm
9. Icecrag Earcuff
10. Gertz Backpack (effects next year could possibly be 1. Cloak of the Phalanx, 2. Ring of Reflexes, 3. Exalted Creeper Amulet (drew an extra one in the treasure this year), 4. Boots of the Marauder, 5. Dragon Tooth Amulet

Picc wrote: But thats a problem with the design of the set itself then not the format. Druids and rangers always have an unfair advantage using it, does it put you off in the normal dungeon?

It's a problem with both.

Yes, it's annoying that certain classes get a better boost from the eldritch tokens in the main dungeon, but c'est la vie.

However, when you create a new challenge level by restricting the total number of tokens a character can equip the impact is magnified.

I look at it this way, the proposed format is nearly identical to:

* All classes get 9 tokens and automatically play at 5th level.

A character may unlock a bonus 10th token by doing any of:
* Playing at 4th level
* Equipping the Might set
* Using a RoSP Voucher
* Equipping the Eldritch 3 piece set.
* In addition, Druids and Rangers may unlock the bonus 10th token by equipping the Eldritch 2 piece set.

To which I say: "Gosh, that's interesting, but I don't want to play a format that implicitly favors two classes."

I applaud what is being done here - I think more formats, especially ones with official or semi official support (e.g. R/UC/C only, or tokens printed in the last 3 years only) are great! This particular format doesn't look like it's for me - that's OK - not everything is for me.

A similar argument could be made about Monk in this format, who doesn't need to equip weapons to be effective.

Lodestone (KH) wrote:

bpsymington wrote: I don't grind, but if I had to do a 10-token challenge, here is my set-up:

Hat of Intellect
Mad Evoker's Charm
Charm of Avarice
Robe of the Archmage
Cloak of the Mage
Charm of Brooching
Greater Cloak of Destiny
Sniper Specs
Ring of Spell Storing
Boots of the Four Winds

CoA?

Yeah, that's assuming I am doing a regular run, not True Grind. For Grind I would change it to something else, maybe the Ious Stone: Topaz Trilliant.

Weaponless Monk:

Level: 5
Health: 41

Melee
+ To Hit: 10
+ Damage: 15 +Eldritch

AC: 20

Saves
Fortitude: 12
Reflex: 12
Will: 13

Retribution Damage: 3 +Eldritch

Free Movement: Free Movement

Set Bonuses: Elemental Eldritch 3-Piece

Melee Mainhand: Flurry of Blows
Melee Offhand: Flurry of Blows
Neck: Amulet of the Champion
Back 1: Cloak of Shadowskin
Hands: Mithral Gauntlets
Finger 1: Supreme Ring of Elemental Command
Waist: Surtr's Girdle of Fire Giant Strength
Pants: Pantaloons of the Underdark
Feet: Boots of the Four Winds
Ioun Stone 1: Ioun Stone Topaz Trilliant
Ioun Stone 2: Ioun Stone Sapphire Prism
Special 1: Rod of Seven Parts (Complete)


Other:
* Ignores first melee or ranged hit per combat.
* Ignores damage reduction

Matthew Hayward wrote: Maybe instead you could play with a house rule that any 2 eldritch items gives the level boost in Grind to any class, or it gives a level boost to no class.

The point here isn't to make things more complex by creating Grind-unique coaching rules for certain classes. It's to minimize extra hassle.

A limited format is dramatically less interesting to me when its design (explicit or implicit) favors one set of classes over another unduly. For example, in the "0 token" format clearly Wizard, Monk, Druid, and Cleric are absolutely awesome, and the Barbarian, Fighter, Ranger, or Rogue are terrible (I guess Ranger can read some spells?), Bard is pretty good.

If you want to look at things strictly by which class has an advantage over which other class, don't forget that the Ranger is "penalized" for needing to devote 2 tokens to melee weapons. Technically the monk suffers the same penalty, but can get around it by using no weapons, or choosing a non-FOB compatible weapon.

But I think you're missing the point, Matthew.

This isn't about trying to build a character which is stronger than other characters in the party. It's a question of, "What's the best way to equip [$CLASS] with just 10 tokens?"

Or, even more accurately, "What's the best PARTY you can put together using only 10 tokens per class?"