TOPIC: DM Token Training Suggestions

Harlax wrote: You could throw in the two hands free to cast a spell ruling.

Beware the Vorpal Bunny!!!!

Mike Steele wrote:

The second instance was a combat room, when our group had taken some damage. On a couple of occasions the Cleric cast a healing spell, and I mentioned that the Cleric got +13 to Heal (which was listed on the party card) and then got to double it (and the Lenses of Divine Sight were also listed on the party card, I'd asked the Coach to write them in). The DM on both occasions gave me a look like he thought I was cheating, and said "It's between you and your God". I tried to show him on the party card where we were getting the bonuses, but he didn't buy it.

Your DM was right. The Lenses don't double the healing. They let you do the same amount of healing to a second target, which CANNOT be the same one.

Because TokenDB

tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-divine-sight/

Unless by "double it" you meant copy the spell on a different person.

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: First, a DM in one room didn't think that Bracers of Supreme Archery and Sniper Spectacles gave a bonus to Wizards doing combat slides (and I agree the wording on them wouldn't lead you to believe they would). The DM called the AC in (which I think is the first time that's ever happened on a Dungeon run I've been on), and the AC didn't think that they did either.

How did this even come up - aren't those bonuses baked into the ranged to-hit bonus that is used for calculating spell slides on the party card?

I think that they are, but the DM wasn't giving our Wizards any bonus to hit. I think the DM and AC thought that the Ranged AC bonus was only applicable to ranged attacks and not spell slides.

Well, apparently there was a recent hidden rule change regarding how Bardsong affects sliding spells. So I'd totally understand if your DM was a bit confused....

What is that recent hidden rule change?

A long time ago, Bardsong didn't add any bonuses (+hit or damage) to sliding spells

Then there was a change to the definition of ranged, so that Bardsong added +hit to sliding spells. This was also the rule change that allowed Dexterity +hit to add to sliding spells, which basically made most sliding spells ridiculously easy to hit with.

This year, apparently, there was a change so that Bardsong adds +hit AND +damage to sliding spells, even without an Earcuff of Inspiration! The issue came up on the DM Quiz and was briefly discussed in the Volunteer forum, though there wasn't much in the way of an official resolution.

As an AC and a high-level wizard, I never heard of bardsong giving any damage bonus without the Earcuff of Inspiration. I can't imagine that would be allowed - otherwise it makes the Earmuff completely useless.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

The second instance was a combat room, when our group had taken some damage. On a couple of occasions the Cleric cast a healing spell, and I mentioned that the Cleric got +13 to Heal (which was listed on the party card) and then got to double it (and the Lenses of Divine Sight were also listed on the party card, I'd asked the Coach to write them in). The DM on both occasions gave me a look like he thought I was cheating, and said "It's between you and your God". I tried to show him on the party card where we were getting the bonuses, but he didn't buy it.

Your DM was right. The Lenses don't double the healing. They let you do the same amount of healing to a second target, which CANNOT be the same one.

Because TokenDB

tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-divine-sight/

Unless by "double it" you meant copy the spell on a different person.

I did mean copy it to a different person, I'm sure I phrased it correctly in the room.

hey, that DM would be me!

I checked the Token DB afterwards, and they did indeed add. I did credit you for that attack, as I usually do when there is a doubt. I would have checked on the DB in room, but my phone was giving me trouble with reception, sometimes it was fine, then 5 minutes later I'd have nothing. I'll know for next year.

As for the "you and your god" I didn't intend for it to sound like doubt, (though It may have sounded that way cause of my surprise at that +13, that is quite a number!) it was more supposed to be a joke, as players do take care of their own numbers, so I don't usually do anything with those numbers unless it seems like the player may be confused or unclear. (which happened more this year than some previous? or maybe it just came up with me more than some previous?)

I am very sorry if I diminished your enjoyment in any way. I know I'm rarely anyone's favorite, I'm just not funny enough, but I hope that I don't make anyone's worst of list...

Andrew Heinsen wrote: hey, that DM would be me!

I checked the Token DB afterwards, and they did indeed add. I did credit you for that attack, as I usually do when there is a doubt. I would have checked on the DB in room, but my phone was giving me trouble with reception, sometimes it was fine, then 5 minutes later I'd have nothing. I'll know for next year.

As for the "you and your god" I didn't intend for it to sound like doubt, (though It may have sounded that way cause of my surprise at that +13, that is quite a number!) it was more supposed to be a joke, as players do take care of their own numbers, so I don't usually do anything with those numbers unless it seems like the player may be confused or unclear. (which happened more this year than some previous? or maybe it just came up with me more than some previous?)

I am very sorry if I diminished your enjoyment in any way. I know I'm rarely anyone's favorite, I'm just not funny enough, but I hope that I don't make anyone's worst of list...

+13? Meh, my son has +17 on his Druid build. People with both the legendary ring and baton can do even more. At some point it becomes overkill.

bpsymington wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: First, a DM in one room didn't think that Bracers of Supreme Archery and Sniper Spectacles gave a bonus to Wizards doing combat slides (and I agree the wording on them wouldn't lead you to believe they would). The DM called the AC in (which I think is the first time that's ever happened on a Dungeon run I've been on), and the AC didn't think that they did either.

How did this even come up - aren't those bonuses baked into the ranged to-hit bonus that is used for calculating spell slides on the party card?

I think that they are, but the DM wasn't giving our Wizards any bonus to hit. I think the DM and AC thought that the Ranged AC bonus was only applicable to ranged attacks and not spell slides.

Well, apparently there was a recent hidden rule change regarding how Bardsong affects sliding spells. So I'd totally understand if your DM was a bit confused....

What is that recent hidden rule change?

A long time ago, Bardsong didn't add any bonuses (+hit or damage) to sliding spells

Then there was a change to the definition of ranged, so that Bardsong added +hit to sliding spells. This was also the rule change that allowed Dexterity +hit to add to sliding spells, which basically made most sliding spells ridiculously easy to hit with.

This year, apparently, there was a change so that Bardsong adds +hit AND +damage to sliding spells, even without an Earcuff of Inspiration! The issue came up on the DM Quiz and was briefly discussed in the Volunteer forum, though there wasn't much in the way of an official resolution.

As an AC and a high-level wizard, I never heard of bardsong giving any damage bonus without the Earcuff of Inspiration. I can't imagine that would be allowed - otherwise it makes the Earmuff completely useless.

Under this new ruling, the Earcuff would still provide the bardsong damage bonus to non-sliding spells (such as Magic Missile, etc.).

The Token quiz question where this issue came up was:

The token "Magnificent Bard's Instrument" adds...

+2 damage to melee, missile, and spell slide attacks

Raven and Druegar seemed to support the official answer, which was questioned by a few volunteers (including me).

In particular, Druegar referenced the TokenDB which said

"Adds +2 Damage to melee and ranged attacks made when a bard uses this instrument to play bardsong"

even though the token text actually refers to melee and missile attacks (not ranged attacks).

So right now it looks like you don't need the Earcuff of Inspiration to get bardsong bonuses to sliding (ray) spells, but you do need it to get bardsong bonuses to auto hit damage spells.

Brad Mortensen wrote: Because TokenDB
tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-divine-sight/

Brad Mortensen gets a cookie!

Druegar wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Because TokenDB
tokendb.com/token/lenses-of-divine-sight/

Brad Mortensen gets a cookie!

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Oh yeah, here's the link for the Magnificent Bard's Instrument:

tokendb.com/token/magnificent-bards-instrument/

Now, WHERE IS MY COOKIE!!!!!

Incognito wrote: Now, WHERE IS MY COOKIE!!!!!

Druegar wrote:

Incognito wrote: Now, WHERE IS MY COOKIE!!!!!

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Wait a second!!!

Incognito wrote:

bpsymington wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: First, a DM in one room didn't think that Bracers of Supreme Archery and Sniper Spectacles gave a bonus to Wizards doing combat slides (and I agree the wording on them wouldn't lead you to believe they would). The DM called the AC in (which I think is the first time that's ever happened on a Dungeon run I've been on), and the AC didn't think that they did either.

How did this even come up - aren't those bonuses baked into the ranged to-hit bonus that is used for calculating spell slides on the party card?

I think that they are, but the DM wasn't giving our Wizards any bonus to hit. I think the DM and AC thought that the Ranged AC bonus was only applicable to ranged attacks and not spell slides.

Well, apparently there was a recent hidden rule change regarding how Bardsong affects sliding spells. So I'd totally understand if your DM was a bit confused....

What is that recent hidden rule change?

A long time ago, Bardsong didn't add any bonuses (+hit or damage) to sliding spells

Then there was a change to the definition of ranged, so that Bardsong added +hit to sliding spells. This was also the rule change that allowed Dexterity +hit to add to sliding spells, which basically made most sliding spells ridiculously easy to hit with.

This year, apparently, there was a change so that Bardsong adds +hit AND +damage to sliding spells, even without an Earcuff of Inspiration! The issue came up on the DM Quiz and was briefly discussed in the Volunteer forum, though there wasn't much in the way of an official resolution.

As an AC and a high-level wizard, I never heard of bardsong giving any damage bonus without the Earcuff of Inspiration. I can't imagine that would be allowed - otherwise it makes the Earmuff completely useless.

Under this new ruling, the Earcuff would still provide the bardsong damage bonus to non-sliding spells (such as Magic Missile, etc.).

The Token quiz question where this issue came up was:

The token "Magnificent Bard's Instrument" adds...

+2 damage to melee, missile, and spell slide attacks

Raven and Druegar seemed to support the official answer, which was questioned by a few volunteers (including me).

In particular, Druegar referenced the TokenDB which said

"Adds +2 Damage to melee and ranged attacks made when a bard uses this instrument to play bardsong"

even though the token text actually refers to melee and missile attacks (not ranged attacks).

So right now it looks like you don't need the Earcuff of Inspiration to get bardsong bonuses to sliding (ray) spells, but you do need it to get bardsong bonuses to auto hit damage spells.

So based on the info I have found and posted elsewhere and this info, it sounds like it is ONLY the Magnificent Bard's Instrument that gives the damage bonus to sliding spells w/o the earcuff, and not bardsong in general.

Druegar, can you or TPTB give me an official ruling on this?