TOPIC: The negative effects of running 10 CoA's

Steve wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
How was this working this year? Were people going into coaching rooms of groups they didn't even know, showing 10 CoA to the Coach, getting the group to agree to split the extra loot, and then leaving (potentially going to the next coaching room)?.

In four days of coaching I did not observe that happening.

It feels like people are worrying about ghosts that have nothing to do with them honestly. Who cares what someone else does with Treasure Tokens *they* are in possession of?! Unless it directly affects your run, I don't see how it matters.

I was in two PUG this year. One of them I was a single ticket, One of them I owned 1/2 the run.
On both runs I outfitted a party with full CoA (some were mine that I own, some were on loan (physically in my possession) from someone who couldn't make it to GenCon this year. I carried all of them through the dungeon. One DM asked to see them, and when I started digging changed his mind. [He was also one of the DM's who listened to a certain AC that said tokens that popped out of sliders were dead slides .. which really nerfed one of my PUG in the final room of Behold.]

In both runs I told the entire party that I outfitted them all with a charm that would take their treasure from 4 to 16. (with the room coach present) I mentioned that I would totally be open to getting 5 or 6 of their extra loot as a donation toward the cost of the tokens. (One room coach told one of the groups what they cost, much to my embarrassment.)

In the run that I owned one ticket .. I received 5 or 6 treasure pulls from almost everyone.

On the run that I owned five tickets, I received 6 from everyone who's ticket I didn't pay for. [The one's I did pay for .. I grabbed random people off the waiting list as long as they promised me they hadn't played before - and the understanding up front was that I would loan them a character and get all the loot.]

The second group, I actually turned away more tokens from one family of three .. who had a *great* time. They offered me all their treasure pulls, including two purples .. I told them to keep them, and run again next year .. or if they didn't think they would be back .. to sell them on e-bay' but made it clear that [no matter how hard it was] I was happy with the few treasure pulls they gave me. They were registering for the forum as I left .. so I hope they play again .. they were really friendly, and the mom was ace at the puzzles. One of those purples were Goggles of Accuracy .. so yeah .. I had to swallow once or twice before saying 'no, those are yours.'

Both times I played a walking box of band-aids .. and I promised the party that everyone would make it out alive. I was engaging, I answered all their questions that I could. I had most of the party set up before the room coach showed, and put almost all of their builds into an app - so the coach could have more time explaining how characters and hit points etc work. I usually only slid on the first round of combat unless it looked like they were going to run out of time. [And even then, I told the DM that *I* shouldn't kill the monster.] I coached them on team work, read all the clues to them .. loudly .. and generally just encouraged folks to speak up - using my 'experienced player' status to make sure that the quiet people didn't get backed into the corner by the one dominant/loud person that seems to be in every group. [Usually with the wrong answers to a puzzle that they are SURE is right.]

Personally, cost aside, I *enjoy* running PUG with CoA. Yes .. I'm greedy and I get some more pulls out of it .. but from a treasure point of view .. it is a win/win. I get some more .. and new players get some more. Before someone points out that Jeff loses .. I will say that I try to make sure he wins too. I *REALLY* talk up True Dungeon. I push volunteering. I push the forum. And more than anything I let people know that they are always welcome back, and encourage them to ask questions, participate, and above all have fun.

This is my 2nd year doing runs like this .. and I've had people come back and tell me that as first time players .. they didn't feel useless, or clueless, or steam-rolled. Some of the people I played with last year asked me to runs they bought tickets on this year

I for one would be a little concerned with the direction this thread has headed at times affecting my ability to do that.

In the scenario I was mentioning, you wouldn't be affected at all. All of those CoA were "soul bonded" to you for the convention, they didn't go on any runs without you, and you outfitted people on the runs you were on. I see no problem with outfitting people in your group and splitting the loot in those circumstances.

What I was objecting to was loaning your loot tokens (physically or virtually) to groups that you weren't a part of. That's different from what you were doing. That is something that Jeff has objected to in the past.

Incognito wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:

balthasar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

balthasar wrote:
We have had to do it in the past. Every year, until this last year, I have had to show mine.

And that's what I call progress!

And that progress is allowing people to earn treasure for runs they aren't running. I allowed one person to use my CoA, which they took through the dungeon, for a few treasure chips. Probably should not have, but with it being carried into the dungeon, I couldn't double dip. I would wager that is happening though.

While we are on the topic of allowing people to earn treasure they shouldn't be earning, maybe they should finally disallow the 5th level Medallion of Nobility from granting the 6th level bonus treasure chip. Currently, 5th level players can get an extra treasure chip they shouldn't be getting!

Not disagreeing with you but how would you propose the check for 6th level is made?

I would argue that it is time for True Dungeon to invest in tablets for the player coaches.

Given the scarcity of qualified player coaches and the high technical (token) skill required, this is a major bottleneck in terms of volunteers.

With tablets and things like Amorgen's spreadsheet and Cranston's apps, it would be a lot easier to calculate party cards. The tablets would also allow the player coach to quickly look up a player and determine their player level. This is applicable not only for 6th level extra treasure but also in case there is a conflict over classes and you want to make sure those involved are 3rd level+.

+1 for this. Totally agree with Incognito. There's so much that could be done with tablets/technologhy to remove inefficiencies from certain parts of the game.

Mike Steele wrote:
In the scenario I was mentioning, you wouldn't be affected at all. All of those CoA were "soul bonded" to you for the convention, they didn't go on any runs without you, and you outfitted people on the runs you were on. I see no problem with outfitting people in your group and splitting the loot in those circumstances.

What I was objecting to was loaning your loot tokens (physically or virtually) to groups that you weren't a part of. That's different from what you were doing. That is something that Jeff has objected to in the past.

Oh .. well that would be a legitimate concern. But really, I don't think I've ever seen that happen - and would be surprised at the room coach that let it fly.

Steve wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
In the scenario I was mentioning, you wouldn't be affected at all. All of those CoA were "soul bonded" to you for the convention, they didn't go on any runs without you, and you outfitted people on the runs you were on. I see no problem with outfitting people in your group and splitting the loot in those circumstances.

What I was objecting to was loaning your loot tokens (physically or virtually) to groups that you weren't a part of. That's different from what you were doing. That is something that Jeff has objected to in the past.

Oh .. well that would be a legitimate concern. But really, I don't think I've ever seen that happen - and would be surprised at the room coach that let it fly.

If you read this and other threads, it looks like it is happening frequently.

Mike Steele wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

balthasar wrote: We have had to show our Treasure Enhancers at epilogue in the past, correct? Having to carry a few tokens that far isn't a burden and it helps keep people from double dipping, or worse.

I disagree. My party's URTEs total 26 tokens, weighing nearly a pound and taking up an entire pocket.

I really don't want to by bumbling through the dungeon with ~$6,000 in my pocket while I dig around for a Scroll Cure Lt. Wounds.

Well, if the alternative is groups running while using Loot tokens that they don't actually own, and getting extra treasure tokens that they don't deserve, then I'm in favor of having to show them at the exit room again. And the people actually coming out of the Dungeon showing them, not someone that joins them in the exit room to claim a portion of the reward.

How was this working this year? Were people going into coaching rooms of groups they didn't even know, showing 10 CoA to the Coach, getting the group to agree to split the extra loot, and then leaving (potentially going to the next coaching room)? Is this the first year this kind of thing was happening? I don't recall hearing about it before, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

Exactly - I think there is a lot of fretting here with very little data.

For the record, I personally have never loaned URTEs on a run I haven't been on, and I would be fine with a policy that made that a requirement.

But...

It's not even clear to me if anyone actually double dipped this year by loaning tokens in a way that resulted in them being in use twice simultaneously.

It's not clear to me that any loaning of loot tokens happened in a circumstance that True Adventures, or the majority of posters, would object to - only speculation that it might have happened.

What is completely clear is that there were no policy violations this year - for the simple reason that there is no stated, documented policy on the loaning of loot tokens.

Before we all freak out and start proposing new encumbrances and rules for URTEs, I think we should take a breath and:

• Let TD determine if anything actually happened that they disapprove of.
• Let TD put a policy in place forbidding the things they disapprove of.

I would hope that as a community, if there were a clear statement of policy around URTE loaning, we could follow that policy without necessitating new documentation and chain of custody rules for the purposes of policy enforcement.

Matthew, I totally agree that it would be up to Jeff/True Dungeon to decide if a policy needs to be put in place on the loaning of loot tokens, and if so what that policy should be. And I also hope that if Jeff did come up with a policy, that the community would follow it voluntarily without any need for additional documentation and registration.

Matthew Hayward wrote: ...
What is completely clear is that there were no policy violations this year - for the simple reason that there is no stated, documented policy on the loaning of loot tokens...

I have to disagree.

There are stated policies regarding loaning of tokens in general, which includes loot tokens. That is:

You can lend them to people.

They have to travel the dungeon, or at least be secured so they can't be used by multiple people simultaneously.

You can't rent them out to random people,

But, if you are in the party, you can work a deal if you want.

The intent was, as I recall, to not discourage people from getting their own tokens. If someone sat at the front of the hall with 40 builds of each character for rent, there would be no reason for most folks to buy tokens, but friends lending out a few here and there is no big deal.

The problem is it's documented in ancient forum threads and never made it into the PHB and whatnot. That's why most of the veterans know these rules and most of the newer players don't.

That's why I said the original scenario was iffy. I don't know what "access to" means. If part owner, it's fine. If someone borrows some CoAs and lends them to the party members as a favor, that's fine. But if I rent them out and pass on a cut to the real owner, that's a violation of Jeff's policy. And honestly, I didn't want to get into it. I figured Jeff would weigh in after he takes a nap.

It is a shame no one brought this up during the rewrites earlier this year.

Hmm... not sure about a lot of things... but CoA's etc. aren't the only tokens being brought in mass to a run. This was my first nightmare run. I didn't have a hardcore build, let alone a nightmare one but both the Paladin and the cleric were very re-assuring and said that everything would be fine.

One of the things that made me feel better was that everyone was going to get a RoH and a Charm of Synergy (+1 hp per CoS in the group).

After I showed my build to the coach, I was allowed to take my cart-full of tokens to the coat check. I only took my weapons and consumables with me. I have ben playing TD since 2013 (I missed playing TD in 2014) and this is the first time I have heard of having to take tokens with me. I specifically asked my coach if it was okay for me to take all of my other tokens back to the coat check and he said it would be okay since I had the excel spreadsheet to track my situational tokens.

As I said, I was on Nightmare level. In the final room with the Beholder (Combat Run), our Dwarven Fighter used his taunt ability. The most damage he ever took was 32 pts, not 50. We didn't kill it but were chased off by his minions. We did 457 pts of damage. When we asked how many hp the beholder had, he told us 600!! That's when I knew I was going to have to use something better than a +1 Silver Bastard Sword at the next GenCon.

In the first combat room, the DM said that there had been a meeting that morning and that they had decided that anytime a token came out of the puck, it was an automatic miss. When we pointed this out to the other combat DMs, they said that was the first that they had heard of it and when a token came out of the puck, they put it back in and went from there.

I got lucky, my group didn't experience any of the bad DMs that all of you mentioned. We did however get to see a group (the combat group that was before ours) told by a volunteer that shouldn't be using treasure enhancing tokens that weren't theirs. She told them that they were getting taken and to be more careful next time. No idea what the actual arrangements were but my brother told me of one fellow who showed him a huge amount of tokens (well over 100) that he had gotten through brokering treasure enhancing tokens with people.

I was a little embarrassed by the fact that only one other person in my group did NOT have a CoA besides me. I do not consider myself to be an elite player but are CoAs really that common? I have been more worried about surviving that anything else. When I was at WYC, I was one of only three players to leave the last room alive. I killed the monster in the last room with a lucky slide onto the 20 spot when I had only 2 hp left!!! I was bound and determined that would not happen at gencon. I had a much better build for gencon only to find myself totally outclassed by everyone in the group except for one player who was doing his very first run (and he was using tokens from the dwarven fighter who was loaning him things like a +3 Deathcleaver).

@the original poster I can see why you would think you were getting a raw deal from the DMs. Based on my experiences with DMs, I think you probably experienced lazy DMs, not ones born of malice.

@everyone else I do agree that things need to be much more consistent on TD runs.

As to loaning tokens... while I can see why people do this, TD players are generous to a fault, I think its a bad idea. Much as I liked having 10 extra hp on my first Nightmare run, looking back I think it just cheapens the game. Players should be able to take pride in their builds but you can't really do that if some of the key tokens aren't yours. Succeed or fail, no one should be allowed to use a "loaner" token. Yeah its cool the first time you get 7 extra treasure pulls (like happened to me once) but I didn't earn them, so it shouldn't have been allowed. Same is true with those 10 extra hp. Or the extra level that the loaner RoH gave me.

Whether or not disallowing loaners can be enforced or not is another issue entirely. Given the nature of TD players though, I think that most of us try to obey the rules and would stop loaning them out IF Jeff said we couldn't loan them out anymore.

It's not that straightforward.

You have playgroups that split large orders and share the tokens.

You have playgroups where one player has the means to buy significant tokens and others do not. Don't try to tell me I can't outfit my sons college aged friends on our run.

You have families where the parents buy tokens and outfit their minions kids. Don't try to tell me my son can't use the tokens I bought.

New players and sealed pack run players are encouraged to swap tokens. If someone pulls an Ultra rare that doesn't work for their class I have no interest in telling them they can't loan it to another party member.

I have seen new players turn down token loans and they have every right to do so. But most are excited to get a glimpse of what is possible and some go on to become significant token buyers themselves.


In any case how in the world would you police such a broad policy.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote: ...
What is completely clear is that there were no policy violations this year - for the simple reason that there is no stated, documented policy on the loaning of loot tokens...

I have to disagree.

There are stated policies regarding loaning of tokens in general, which includes loot tokens. That is:

You can lend them to people.

They have to travel the dungeon, or at least be secured so they can't be used by multiple people simultaneously.

You can't rent them out to random people,

But, if you are in the party, you can work a deal if you want.

The intent was, as I recall, to not discourage people from getting their own tokens. If someone sat at the front of the hall with 40 builds of each character for rent, there would be no reason for most folks to buy tokens, but friends lending out a few here and there is no big deal.

The problem is it's documented in ancient forum threads and never made it into the PHB and whatnot. That's why most of the veterans know these rules and most of the newer players don't.

That's why I said the original scenario was iffy. I don't know what "access to" means. If part owner, it's fine. If someone borrows some CoAs and lends them to the party members as a favor, that's fine. But if I rent them out and pass on a cut to the real owner, that's a violation of Jeff's policy. And honestly, I didn't want to get into it. I figured Jeff would weigh in after he takes a nap.

It is a shame no one brought this up during the rewrites earlier this year.

This is my 4th year as a coach and I've never heard of that. If it's a policy it should appear in the Coaches Guide and be covered in training.

Picc wrote: Honestly I worry about stuff like this every time I hear about a pricey magic deck getting stolen. Guess were just lucky those elements haven't discovered how valuable tokens are yet.

Hate to say it, but there've been people concerned with counterfeit tokens for a while now.

Which means 'those elements' already know.

Not that there's a perfect overlap between those who would make fakes versus those who'd try to steal some, of course. But I can't imagine there's zero overlap.

Brad Mortensen wrote: The problem is it's documented in ancient forum threads and never made it into the PHB and whatnot. That's why most of the veterans know these rules and most of the newer players don't.

If they're not written down where anyone can see them, are they truly written down? I mean, not to be pedantic, but while that's fine for those who peruse the forums (and have for years), even that group will generally be only a fraction of a given player base.

If it's important enough to have policy on, it should probably be easily found (and included thoroughly in the DM training, and at least touched upon for new players, and very clearly sorted out in advance with the AC's).

Forar wrote:

Picc wrote: Honestly I worry about stuff like this every time I hear about a pricey magic deck getting stolen. Guess were just lucky those elements haven't discovered how valuable tokens are yet.

Hate to say it, but there've been people concerned with counterfeit tokens for a while now.

Which means 'those elements' already know.

Not that there's a perfect overlap between those who would make fakes versus those who'd try to steal some, of course. But I can't imagine there's zero overlap.

Brad Mortensen wrote: The problem is it's documented in ancient forum threads and never made it into the PHB and whatnot. That's why most of the veterans know these rules and most of the newer players don't.

If they're not written down where anyone can see them, are they truly written down? I mean, not to be pedantic, but while that's fine for those who peruse the forums (and have for years), even that group will generally be only a fraction of a given player base.

If it's important enough to have policy on, it should probably be easily found (and included thoroughly in the DM training, and at least touched upon for new players, and very clearly sorted out in advance with the AC's).

That's why I said it's a shame no one thought to sort this topic out this spring. But people can't be expected to know what they don't know, so I wasn't saying anyone knowingly did anything wrong.