TOPIC: The negative effects of running 10 CoA's

Matthew Hayward wrote:

balthasar wrote: We have had to show our Treasure Enhancers at epilogue in the past, correct? Having to carry a few tokens that far isn't a burden and it helps keep people from double dipping, or worse.

I disagree. My party's URTEs total 26 tokens, weighing nearly a pound and taking up an entire pocket.

I really don't want to by bumbling through the dungeon with ~$6,000 in my pocket while I dig around for a Scroll Cure Lt. Wounds.

Well, if the alternative is groups running while using Loot tokens that they don't actually own, and getting extra treasure tokens that they don't deserve, then I'm in favor of having to show them at the exit room again. And the people actually coming out of the Dungeon showing them, not someone that joins them in the exit room to claim a portion of the reward.

How was this working this year? Were people going into coaching rooms of groups they didn't even know, showing 10 CoA to the Coach, getting the group to agree to split the extra loot, and then leaving (potentially going to the next coaching room)? Is this the first year this kind of thing was happening? I don't recall hearing about it before, but that doesn't mean it wasn't happening.

Mike Steele wrote:
How was this working this year? Were people going into coaching rooms of groups they didn't even know, showing 10 CoA to the Coach, getting the group to agree to split the extra loot, and then leaving (potentially going to the next coaching room)?.

In four days of coaching I did not observe that happening.

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:

balthasar wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

balthasar wrote:
We have had to do it in the past. Every year, until this last year, I have had to show mine.

And that's what I call progress!

And that progress is allowing people to earn treasure for runs they aren't running. I allowed one person to use my CoA, which they took through the dungeon, for a few treasure chips. Probably should not have, but with it being carried into the dungeon, I couldn't double dip. I would wager that is happening though.

While we are on the topic of allowing people to earn treasure they shouldn't be earning, maybe they should finally disallow the 5th level Medallion of Nobility from granting the 6th level bonus treasure chip. Currently, 5th level players can get an extra treasure chip they shouldn't be getting!

Not disagreeing with you but how would you propose the check for 6th level is made?

I would argue that it is time for True Dungeon to invest in tablets for the player coaches.

Given the scarcity of qualified player coaches and the high technical (token) skill required, this is a major bottleneck in terms of volunteers.

With tablets and things like Amorgen's spreadsheet and Cranston's apps, it would be a lot easier to calculate party cards. The tablets would also allow the player coach to quickly look up a player and determine their player level. This is applicable not only for 6th level extra treasure but also in case there is a conflict over classes and you want to make sure those involved are 3rd level+.

Just make nobility the extra draw (come up with a new 6th or leave it open)... simple. We are definitely over complicating things.

Chris Von Wahlde wrote: Just make nobility the extra draw (come up with a new 6th or leave it open)... simple. We are definitely over complicating things.

I've made that suggestion before (make the extra draw at 5th level).

Someone did make a good point. Since normally you need to mail in for the Medallion of Nobility, you won't really get to use it until the following year. If you make the treasure draw at 5th level, people will feel entitled to the extra draw immediately even though they don't have the Medallion yet. That would actually complicate things.

Incognito wrote: I would argue that it is time for True Dungeon to invest in tablets for the player coaches.

Given the scarcity of qualified player coaches and the high technical (token) skill required, this is a major bottleneck in terms of volunteers.

With tablets and things like Amorgen's spreadsheet and Cranston's apps, it would be a lot easier to calculate party cards. The tablets would also allow the player coach to quickly look up a player and determine their player level. This is applicable not only for 6th level extra treasure but also in case there is a conflict over classes and you want to make sure those involved are 3rd level+.

This has been brought up before. And again I don't disagree with you. You would also need some sort of connection to the internet for them. I would dredge paying Gen Con prices to hook them up. But with a good mifi you might be able to cover both coaching areas' but I have my doubts. 2 MiFi would do the trick. Amazon fire are good little inexpensive devices that hold a charge a long time when not in use. This is actually something I know quite a bit about as I am testing new devices for my company to use in the field for our events.

I like the tablet idea in principle, heck why stop at coaching. It could replace the party card entirely. A tablet could do a lot of cool stuff in terms of sharing notes/rulings between different shift room DMs, accurately tracking HP, and making sure damage reductions are actually remembered.

All that said I think we need to be very careful of how we implement such a solution as it could also become a major point of failure in a system with very tight timings. Even spending 10 minutes to run to the back and grab a replacement could throw things off by an entire room.

IMO its worth looking at, I think we'll end up there eventually no matter what we do. We just need to proceed with caution. Remember how well the character builder on the website worked out.

jedibcg wrote: This has been brought up before. And again I don't disagree with you. You would also need some sort of connection to the internet for them. I would dredge paying Gen Con prices to hook them up. But with a good mifi you might be able to cover both coaching areas' but I have my doubts. 2 MiFi would do the trick. Amazon fire are good little inexpensive devices that hold a charge a long time when not in use. This is actually something I know quite a bit about as I am testing new devices for my company to use in the field for our events.

Would you really need Wifi/Mifi?

The character generator apps could be downloaded. So you don't need an active connection to use those.

In theory, the XP list for players could be copied or downloaded before the Con. That would serve as a blueprint for the majority of cases. There might be rare cases where someone reaches a new level mid-way, but you could first check to see if that player would have been <= 4000 XP away and then do a more thorough online check to get updated data.

Picc wrote: All that said I think we need to be very careful of how we implement such a solution as it could also become a major point of failure in a system with very tight timings. Even spending 10 minutes to run to the back and grab a replacement could throw things off by an entire room.

That's why expert player coaches would still be useful. Because WHEN technology fails, they can still fill out the party card the old fashioned way!

Incognito wrote:

Chris Von Wahlde wrote: Just make nobility the extra draw (come up with a new 6th or leave it open)... simple. We are definitely over complicating things.

I've made that suggestion before (make the extra draw at 5th level).

Someone did make a good point. Since normally you need to mail in for the Medallion of Nobility, you won't really get to use it until the following year. If you make the treasure draw at 5th level, people will feel entitled to the extra draw immediately even though they don't have the Medallion yet. That would actually complicate things.

I definitely see your point. I don't agree however. It would be the same for everyone. If you become 5th at GenCon it doesn't take effect until next year for the draw. Not sure why that complicates anything at all.

Incognito wrote: I would argue that it is time for True Dungeon to invest in tablets for the player coaches.

Given the scarcity of qualified player coaches and the high technical (token) skill required, this is a major bottleneck in terms of volunteers.

With tablets and things like Amorgen's spreadsheet and Cranston's apps, it would be a lot easier to calculate party cards. The tablets would also allow the player coach to quickly look up a player and determine their player level. This is applicable not only for 6th level extra treasure but also in case there is a conflict over classes and you want to make sure those involved are 3rd level+.

The more I think about it the more I find myself shuddering

ME: So are you a level 6 player?

Them: Yes I think so, I used a purple card last year, how do I know that.

ME: We can check it online with this tablet. Whats your forum name?

Them: I don't know someone else always handles that stuff for me, their not here. Carl whats my forum name.... He doesn't know. Can you look me up?

ME: Not sure if we'll have time for that.

Them: It'll only take a second.

ME: Hold on, its connecting to the Wifi.


x10 players with shoe boxes of tokens.

Honestly it would be easier to just make the extra treasure pull/medallion Lv5 and move lords & ladies access to 6 if there's a concern about it being empty.

Or print a lv6 badge ribbon or something like they do for Catan. Could give them out at the desk like they do with the rod vouchers. Plus it would be an extra TD advert we could attach to some badges. I know there are some people who go crazy collecting those ribbons.

Incognito wrote:

Picc wrote: All that said I think we need to be very careful of how we implement such a solution as it could also become a major point of failure in a system with very tight timings. Even spending 10 minutes to run to the back and grab a replacement could throw things off by an entire room.

That's why expert player coaches would still be useful. Because WHEN technology fails, they can still fill out the party card the old fashioned way!

valid, but a lack of need/practice breeds a lack of skill. How many people do you know who can still drive standard, or write long hand (I felt super old when my nephew told me they didn't bother teaching it in school anymore because everyone just used computers).

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
How was this working this year? Were people going into coaching rooms of groups they didn't even know, showing 10 CoA to the Coach, getting the group to agree to split the extra loot, and then leaving (potentially going to the next coaching room)?.

In four days of coaching I did not observe that happening.

It feels like people are worrying about ghosts that have nothing to do with them honestly. Who cares what someone else does with Treasure Tokens *they* are in possession of?! Unless it directly affects your run, I don't see how it matters.

I was in two PUG this year. One of them I was a single ticket, One of them I owned 1/2 the run.
On both runs I outfitted a party with full CoA (some were mine that I own, some were on loan (physically in my possession) from someone who couldn't make it to GenCon this year. I carried all of them through the dungeon. One DM asked to see them, and when I started digging changed his mind. [He was also one of the DM's who listened to a certain AC that said tokens that popped out of sliders were dead slides .. which really nerfed one of my PUG in the final room of Behold.]

In both runs I told the entire party that I outfitted them all with a charm that would take their treasure from 4 to 16. (with the room coach present) I mentioned that I would totally be open to getting 5 or 6 of their extra loot as a donation toward the cost of the tokens. (One room coach told one of the groups what they cost, much to my embarrassment.)

In the run that I owned one ticket .. I received 5 or 6 treasure pulls from almost everyone.

On the run that I owned five tickets, I received 6 from everyone who's ticket I didn't pay for. [The one's I did pay for .. I grabbed random people off the waiting list as long as they promised me they hadn't played before - and the understanding up front was that I would loan them a character and get all the loot.]

The second group, I actually turned away more tokens from one family of three .. who had a *great* time. They offered me all their treasure pulls, including two purples .. I told them to keep them, and run again next year .. or if they didn't think they would be back .. to sell them on e-bay' but made it clear that [no matter how hard it was] I was happy with the few treasure pulls they gave me. They were registering for the forum as I left .. so I hope they play again .. they were really friendly, and the mom was ace at the puzzles. One of those purples were Goggles of Accuracy .. so yeah .. I had to swallow once or twice before saying 'no, those are yours.'

Both times I played a walking box of band-aids .. and I promised the party that everyone would make it out alive. I was engaging, I answered all their questions that I could. I had most of the party set up before the room coach showed, and put almost all of their builds into an app - so the coach could have more time explaining how characters and hit points etc work. I usually only slid on the first round of combat unless it looked like they were going to run out of time. [And even then, I told the DM that *I* shouldn't kill the monster.] I coached them on team work, read all the clues to them .. loudly .. and generally just encouraged folks to speak up - using my 'experienced player' status to make sure that the quiet people didn't get backed into the corner by the one dominant/loud person that seems to be in every group. [Usually with the wrong answers to a puzzle that they are SURE is right.]

Personally, cost aside, I *enjoy* running PUG with CoA. Yes .. I'm greedy and I get some more pulls out of it .. but from a treasure point of view .. it is a win/win. I get some more .. and new players get some more. Before someone points out that Jeff loses .. I will say that I try to make sure he wins too. I *REALLY* talk up True Dungeon. I push volunteering. I push the forum. And more than anything I let people know that they are always welcome back, and encourage them to ask questions, participate, and above all have fun.

This is my 2nd year doing runs like this .. and I've had people come back and tell me that as first time players .. they didn't feel useless, or clueless, or steam-rolled. Some of the people I played with last year asked me to runs they bought tickets on this year

I for one would be a little concerned with the direction this thread has headed at times affecting my ability to do that.