TOPIC: The negative effects of running 10 CoA's

Legion wrote: To steer it slightly back on topic: I carry all my gear into the dungeon. Granted, that's only ~40 tokens, but I have had more than one occasion of having to explain a tokens ability to a GM so that I could use it. I have no problem with this. I wouldn't expect every GM to have memorized every token...

Try doing that with 12 different builds though.

Harlax wrote:

Legion wrote: To steer it slightly back on topic: I carry all my gear into the dungeon. Granted, that's only ~40 tokens, but I have had more than one occasion of having to explain a tokens ability to a GM so that I could use it. I have no problem with this. I wouldn't expect every GM to have memorized every token...

When I am coaching there comes a moment when I typically move around half the tokens on a players mat to the bottom and say "these are conditional, you may need to remember the effect or show it to the DM in the dungeon."

I carry all my tokens in a binder in case I am asked to show a token.

After getting caught in the web last year, and was asked to show my boots of marauder to get out and it taking me a full turn to find, I packaged by build in one easy to grab place that I keep on me in runs.

jedibcg wrote:

Legion wrote: To steer it slightly back on topic: I carry all my gear into the dungeon. Granted, that's only ~40 tokens, but I have had more than one occasion of having to explain a tokens ability to a GM so that I could use it. I have no problem with this. I wouldn't expect every GM to have memorized every token...

Try doing that with 12 different builds though.

I do it with a full group's build...

jedibcg wrote:

Legion wrote: To steer it slightly back on topic: I carry all my gear into the dungeon. Granted, that's only ~40 tokens, but I have had more than one occasion of having to explain a tokens ability to a GM so that I could use it. I have no problem with this. I wouldn't expect every GM to have memorized every token...

Try doing that with 12 different builds though.

True. I have a group of 10 that I adventure with, so I'm not packing for a PUG. We have 4 guys that have outfitted themselves and they outfit the other 6. We just hand over the kits and collect them at the end. Everyone seems to be happy with that. (I'm not going to go into the guys that ask for a treasure tithe, that's another thread...

Ok let me start with this.
There is no general bag check for TD. Its only available to Adventure Guild Badge Holders, which in theory spent 2k to get one. Now if someone picked up a badge on Ebay I guess that's different. So bag checking tokens should be rare.

So that being said, the vast majority of all my players carried their tokens through the entire adventure.
In the odd few that didn't I never got the impression they were running to another room to re-use these tokens for another group. I truly don't think that is really happening much if at all.

I never had anyone walk in to present tokens and then not accompany the run. I'm not sure how I'd feel about that.
I'd probably call a CC before I allowed it and I believe the official ruling would be only if the tokens went with the group (to ensure they can't double dip).

Next order of business. I check all Treasure Enhancers and High end power tokens.
Everyone I train, I train to do exactly the same.

Yes this means I check tokens for people I KNOW, including good friends.

DMs are allowed to ask for any conditional token. They have no business asking to see treasure enhancers and not much business asking to see tokens completely recorded on the party card. I explain situational tokens to every group I coach that hasn't played much, I do assume Vets know this. Players should assume they need to present tokens and this typically isn't an issue because most players have all the tokens with them.


As to the Original Post. I'll say they likely had little to no idea you were running full CoAs.
What IS more likely, the DM assigned to the task was not Up for the task and "winged it".

I did have 1 DM that I thought maybe knew we were going to beat it and just had us play out a few rounds of combat for show. But overall I had some very good DMs.

valetutto wrote: DMs are allowed to ask for any conditional token. They have no business asking to see treasure enhancers and not much business asking to see tokens completely recorded on the party card.

I think they do have business asking, if something on the party card looks out of place.

If I see "+40 to hit, +60 to damage," I think something is up and I will ask about it.

Also, there are cases where the party card is written illegibly so asking allows me to confirm what the number really should be.

Vaguely on topic observations an notes:

I was asked damn near each and every time to show my CoA, think out of 6 runs only 1 coach didn't check. Several times i was asked to point several tokens to at least match up what was in my build (android app where i handed phone to coach).

Learned that just because a player has CoA's doesn't mean rest of their builds are matching value wise. Got into a great pseudo pug with Bill Krenson/Adam Guay and a another forumite who had 4 people bail on him that 3 of us filled in on. I saw his CoA's and assumed rest of his builds where up there. Ended up moving stuff around a bit in coaching room.

Think i was one of the very few who said no i don't get the 6th lvl chip bonus (nxt year!) despite having medallion of nobility. Really would like it to be 5th lvl reward for clarity sake and either leave 6th blank or add something new for 6th lvl.

How about we remove the extra treasure from 6th level and give it to players who show up with their character pre-built? Screw +1 HP. You want people to come with pre-filled character sheets, give them treasure for it.

Incognito wrote: If I see "+40 to hit, +60 to damage," I think something is up and I will ask about it.

Or you'll just assume *I* did it, like that time Halfling Stu's son played the Halfling Dwarf fighter in one memorable Grind. (Okay, his to-hit wasn't actually 40. I rolled a D20 for all his stats. But they were pretty Wonky stats.)

Incognito has a point, tho: Coaches get a feel for what's possible after a while. The first couple of times you see an AC in the 40's, you ask "How are you getting this? Please show me all your Dex and AC tokens." But if you see an AC in the 50's, you'll go... No, this isn't right, shy of an Artifact.

DMs might not quite understand what's possible these days, or how much investment it takes to make one of those killer builds. I think if they did, they'd be less likely to penalize players, because the price tag is penalty enough for being able to play at that level.

Milambus (Jake) wrote: How about we remove the extra treasure from 6th level and give it to players who show up with their character pre-built? Screw +1 HP. You want people to come with pre-filled character sheets, give them treasure for it.

Ooooh, that would be both brilliant and terrifying.
I just wouldn't want to be the one who has to settle an argument with a player who insists he ought to get his treasure because he totally has a pre-filled character sheet, just give him 10 more minutes to charge up his phone and then enter all the stats in.

Raven wrote:

Milambus (Jake) wrote: How about we remove the extra treasure from 6th level and give it to players who show up with their character pre-built? Screw +1 HP. You want people to come with pre-filled character sheets, give them treasure for it.

Ooooh, that would be both brilliant and terrifying.
I just wouldn't want to be the one who has to settle an argument with a player who insists he ought to get his treasure because he totally has a pre-filled character sheet, just give him 10 more minutes to charge up his phone and then enter all the stats in.

I wouldnt want to be the one who had to explain why your prefilled stats for the class you didnt get to play for whatever reason didnt get you the chip. Double salty players at that point IMO.

Or decide who got the chips if someone lent out builds and had stats for 'the entire party'

Yeah I think chip for pre-printed is a bad idea. The +1HP seems appropriate, now that those not on the forums heard about it at Gen Con (I heard multiple coaches saying so) we can see how much of an uptick there is next year.

Steve wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:
How was this working this year? Were people going into coaching rooms of groups they didn't even know, showing 10 CoA to the Coach, getting the group to agree to split the extra loot, and then leaving (potentially going to the next coaching room)?.

In four days of coaching I did not observe that happening.

It feels like people are worrying about ghosts that have nothing to do with them honestly. Who cares what someone else does with Treasure Tokens *they* are in possession of?! Unless it directly affects your run, I don't see how it matters.

I was in two PUG this year. One of them I was a single ticket, One of them I owned 1/2 the run.
On both runs I outfitted a party with full CoA (some were mine that I own, some were on loan (physically in my possession) from someone who couldn't make it to GenCon this year. I carried all of them through the dungeon. One DM asked to see them, and when I started digging changed his mind. [He was also one of the DM's who listened to a certain AC that said tokens that popped out of sliders were dead slides .. which really nerfed one of my PUG in the final room of Behold.]

In both runs I told the entire party that I outfitted them all with a charm that would take their treasure from 4 to 16. (with the room coach present) I mentioned that I would totally be open to getting 5 or 6 of their extra loot as a donation toward the cost of the tokens. (One room coach told one of the groups what they cost, much to my embarrassment.)

In the run that I owned one ticket .. I received 5 or 6 treasure pulls from almost everyone.

On the run that I owned five tickets, I received 6 from everyone who's ticket I didn't pay for. [The one's I did pay for .. I grabbed random people off the waiting list as long as they promised me they hadn't played before - and the understanding up front was that I would loan them a character and get all the loot.]

The second group, I actually turned away more tokens from one family of three .. who had a *great* time. They offered me all their treasure pulls, including two purples .. I told them to keep them, and run again next year .. or if they didn't think they would be back .. to sell them on e-bay' but made it clear that [no matter how hard it was] I was happy with the few treasure pulls they gave me. They were registering for the forum as I left .. so I hope they play again .. they were really friendly, and the mom was ace at the puzzles. One of those purples were Goggles of Accuracy .. so yeah .. I had to swallow once or twice before saying 'no, those are yours.'

Both times I played a walking box of band-aids .. and I promised the party that everyone would make it out alive. I was engaging, I answered all their questions that I could. I had most of the party set up before the room coach showed, and put almost all of their builds into an app - so the coach could have more time explaining how characters and hit points etc work. I usually only slid on the first round of combat unless it looked like they were going to run out of time. [And even then, I told the DM that *I* shouldn't kill the monster.] I coached them on team work, read all the clues to them .. loudly .. and generally just encouraged folks to speak up - using my 'experienced player' status to make sure that the quiet people didn't get backed into the corner by the one dominant/loud person that seems to be in every group. [Usually with the wrong answers to a puzzle that they are SURE is right.]

Personally, cost aside, I *enjoy* running PUG with CoA. Yes .. I'm greedy and I get some more pulls out of it .. but from a treasure point of view .. it is a win/win. I get some more .. and new players get some more. Before someone points out that Jeff loses .. I will say that I try to make sure he wins too. I *REALLY* talk up True Dungeon. I push volunteering. I push the forum. And more than anything I let people know that they are always welcome back, and encourage them to ask questions, participate, and above all have fun.

This is my 2nd year doing runs like this .. and I've had people come back and tell me that as first time players .. they didn't feel useless, or clueless, or steam-rolled. Some of the people I played with last year asked me to runs they bought tickets on this year

I for one would be a little concerned with the direction this thread has headed at times affecting my ability to do that.

Thanks again for the great run, Steve! (I was the Wizard playing with his son, the Bard). I think you did a great job of holding back enough and letting the new players get the full experience of the dungeon while buffing everyone up just enough that they could all focus on the fun aspects of the event without having to worry that a bad slide or two would leave them only able to talk through my son with his Shade Cloak. I was happy to donate a 5 treasure chip back to you for the use of your CoA (still came out way ahead) and you must be the lucky charm for pulling purps because, in addition to the woman getting the Lenses, my son grabbed Boots of Might! I'll happily run with you again, anytime.