TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

As one of the groups that purchase 15 runs this year I think it is on how the group works. Each year to include this year, we take 1 to 3 newbies with us. We let them pick between all the classes but typically not Druid (Kubu), Barbarian (Smakdown), and Fighter (Bawlin), this gives everyone a chance to play something different! However, we did let may people play those three classes. It is fun watching Kubu play a ranger!

In one run we had three people that wanted the rogue all experienced players and they figured out themselves who get to play the rogue!

We did have two runs runs in addtion that we didn't purchase all the tickets (I dropped the extra tickets). We had newbies on both runs and other veterans. I think it is how you approach the new people on the classes. Yes we are all legendary geared players but we do bring lower end items to play with just incase the new folks don't want to borrow gear. It is not about how hard of a level you run on, it is about the experience and fun - Gary taught us this in 2009. We have our runs to play on Epic as our group, the rest of the runs are NM or less. The new players get to pick what level they want to play on. Some want that Ferrari Nightmare others Hugo Normal.

Heck, I play Ranger and I didn't play it one time in all of our runs! Newbies, newish returning players etc. It is my belief, since we can gear any class, that we are flexible in playing anything.

I'm not sure if I captured what I meant too - I'm at work with only 15 minutes time on the computer for outside connectivity!

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I would like to see TD implement some sort of a reward system that incentivizes multiple cons. We have a system for playing each dungeon once (XP), we have a system for how many tokens you buy (AG/Patron runs), why not a system for those who attend multiple cons?

That's definitely an intriguing idea. I'm sure folks who do multiple cons would appreciate it. However, there's a decent to definite chance that some folks who can't make it to more than one con would feel less than appreciative. I'm not saying it's not a valid concept, but if implemented, we (TD) would need to carefully consider how both camps may react.

macXdmg wrote:

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: In over 10 years of playing TD, I can count the number of times I've seen a class choice conflict on one hand... and I'll still have two fingers left over. Is this even an issue?

Conversely, there another issue seems to impact many more new players; bag check. As someone who regularly uses the bag check, I saw dozens of new players feeling bad because they didn't want to carry their purchase-loaded bags through the dungeon and were turned away.

To the question of is this an issue, unequivocally yes. If it cannot be worked out in a fashion that is respectful of everyone and comes down to “nah I’ve played longer get lost” that is not a lesson I would like my son to learn.

I also think we’re just better than that.

You're putting words in people's mouths. Nobody defending veteran players is suggesting this.

My points are...

1) This is an infrequent issue. We have bigger fish to fry like TE lending sharks, bag check disappointment, and especially vets who spoil the dungeon for new players. (That last one is the #1 complaint that I hear when a new player has had a bad run.)

2) Rules, existing or new will not prevent jerks from being jerks.

3) Any new rule should put both Vets and new players on equal footing to get what they want. As others have said, $80 is $80 no matter who paid it, everyone should have a good time.

Is it in our best interests to grow TD with new players? Yes. But we should also show them the ropes and let them know the community isn't going to bend over backward for them for their TD careers. Both parties should give. And in my experience, most vets are already bending.

I agree its time for this rule to be removed. Let people work it out like adults or just let everyone roll off. Level 3 is not hard to get, but it creates this sense of entitlement which causes issues, it might not be frequent but it feels like this rule does more harm then it is worth.

I witnessed this at Gen Con, there was a group who purchased most but not all of the tickets to the run. Everyone else who purchased individual tickets showed up before the larger group did and selected classes that people in the group wanted to play. One of the players literally stood there asked if the player who had selected "His" class was level 6 on the forums they answered they were only level 3 and then suddenly he said hand over the card. Thankfully the coach was there to step in and explain that is not how it works. Even after this they continued to complain about how they had spent thousands of dollars on tokens and could not play their classes. Which since I saw several legendary weapons I have no doubt about how much was spent on tokens.

Frankly when this ability is used it is frequently abused or just totally misunderstood. I still think we should just let groups run multiples of the same classes, it would make the players happier, it might leave groups unbalanced but that should be the groups choice. But since that is unlikely to occur just let everyone have an equal chance at the class they want to play if they are brand new or a multiyear vet.

Maybe the coach should bring the cards to the room with them, along with a die. Ask who is playing each class one at a time and if two or more people want the same class just have them roll off at that point. No pulling rank, no rush to get to the coaching room the second it is reset. Even if we do keep the rule, I still think this is a good idea, having the coach handle giving out the classes would likely fix a lot of the problems, because once its done for each class that is it, pick something else.

Kenban wrote: Maybe the coach should bring the cards to the room with them, along with a die. Ask who is playing each class one at a time and if two or more people want the same class just have them roll off at that point. No pulling rank, no rush to get to the coaching room the second it is reset. Even if we do keep the rule, I still think this is a good idea, having the coach handle giving out the classes would likely fix a lot of the problems, because once its done for each class that is it, pick something else.

You highlight the problem with the "first come" solution. It only creates more arguments.

Your solution of the coach bringing the cards with them is good. But if that's the case, I'd also like to add that forum organization supersedes the roll off. We all have phones. We can all verify a forum post. And perhaps it will motivate new players to join the TD community which is an ultimate goal as it deepens their connection beyond the once or twice a year run.

Druegar wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I would like to see TD implement some sort of a reward system that incentivizes multiple cons. We have a system for playing each dungeon once (XP), we have a system for how many tokens you buy (AG/Patron runs), why not a system for those who attend multiple cons?

That's definitely an intriguing idea. I'm sure folks who do multiple cons would appreciate it. However, there's a decent to definite chance that some folks who can't make it to more than one con would feel less than appreciative. I'm not saying it's not a valid concept, but if implemented, we (TD) would need to carefully consider how both camps may react.

Count me in the camp of single conventioners that wouldn't be thrilled if people doing multiple conventions got bonuses like first pick of characters (even though it wouldn't impact me directly).

I mentioned previously that it would be neat if True Dungeon did something like giving a special button or badge to anyone doing all the Dungeons at all the conventions, or maybe a lower threshold like dungeons at three different conventions.

Kenban wrote: I agree its time for this rule to be removed. Let people work it out like adults or just let everyone roll off. Level 3 is not hard to get, but it creates this sense of entitlement which causes issues, it might not be frequent but it feels like this rule does more harm then it is worth.

I witnessed this at Gen Con, there was a group who purchased most but not all of the tickets to the run. Everyone else who purchased individual tickets showed up before the larger group did and selected classes that people in the group wanted to play. One of the players literally stood there asked if the player who had selected "His" class was level 6 on the forums they answered they were only level 3 and then suddenly he said hand over the card. Thankfully the coach was there to step in and explain that is not how it works. Even after this they continued to complain about how they had spent thousands of dollars on tokens and could not play their classes. Which since I saw several legendary weapons I have no doubt about how much was spent on tokens.

Frankly when this ability is used it is frequently abused or just totally misunderstood. I still think we should just let groups run multiples of the same classes, it would make the players happier, it might leave groups unbalanced but that should be the groups choice. But since that is unlikely to occur just let everyone have an equal chance at the class they want to play if they are brand new or a multiyear vet.

Maybe the coach should bring the cards to the room with them, along with a die. Ask who is playing each class one at a time and if two or more people want the same class just have them roll off at that point. No pulling rank, no rush to get to the coaching room the second it is reset. Even if we do keep the rule, I still think this is a good idea, having the coach handle giving out the classes would likely fix a lot of the problems, because once its done for each class that is it, pick something else.

My one concern is who do I hand the pile of character cards to when I walk in and there are already 10 people waiting (which is almost every time). If I hand it to someone I know it will seem like nepotism. Even if I don't get ready for claims of it. This method would also prevent people from getting their token setup before the coach arrives (which can be a real problem, at 24 minutes we have just about 2 minutes per person to get your stats down, that doesn't leave much time to wait while people get setup for a class). IMO this method would only delay the first come first serve arguments until the coach arrived.

Mike Steele wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote: I would like to see TD implement some sort of a reward system that incentivizes multiple cons. We have a system for playing each dungeon once (XP), we have a system for how many tokens you buy (AG/Patron runs), why not a system for those who attend multiple cons?

That's definitely an intriguing idea. I'm sure folks who do multiple cons would appreciate it. However, there's a decent to definite chance that some folks who can't make it to more than one con would feel less than appreciative. I'm not saying it's not a valid concept, but if implemented, we (TD) would need to carefully consider how both camps may react.

Count me in the camp of single conventioners that wouldn't be thrilled if people doing multiple conventions got bonuses like first pick of characters (even though it wouldn't impact me directly).

I mentioned previously that it would be neat if True Dungeon did something like giving a special button or badge to anyone doing all the Dungeons at all the conventions, or maybe a lower threshold like dungeons at three different conventions.

Even as someone who usually attends multiple cons per year I would be against this. If you want to see people complain about elitism lets put some kind of bonus on taking 5 cross country trips per year. Texas, West coast, Madison aren't exactly close, odds are your basically only giving a bonus to people who can afford air travel in addition to several vacations per year and that doesn't sit right.

Picc wrote: Even as someone who usually attends multiple cons per year I would be against this. If you want to see people complain about elitism lets put some kind of bonus on taking 5 cross country trips per year. Texas, West coast, Madison aren't exactly close, odds are your basically only giving a bonus to people who can afford air travel in addition to several vacations per year and that doesn't sit right.

I really don't see that is much different than awarding people that were able to play in 2003 vs anyone who could not afford it then. Or that big token purchases get more of a reward than smaller token purchases. This game has rewarded those that support it. I am not advocating for or against a system to reward multiple cons, just pointing out that it does seem odd to me that some are okay with some times of rewards for supporters of the game but not for others.

Rewards for playing multiple cons would not affect how I play at all. I would go to the same cons that I would with or without a reward system. Also if someone got a higher multiple cons leaderboard than me I would not care the same way that I don't care that their were people playing before me. Neither of those things affect how and when and how much I play and enjoy the game. I do understand that there are some that do. Just putting it out there that I do not care.

jedibcg wrote: Rewards for playing multiple cons would not affect how I play at all. I would go to the same cons that I would with or without a reward system. Also if someone got a higher multiple cons leaderboard than me I would not care the same way that I don't care that their were people playing before me. Neither of those things affect how and when and how much I play and enjoy the game. I do understand that there are some that do. Just putting it out there that I do not care.

One of the rare times I agree with Jedi! (just kidding we agree quite often)

Ed

TD should strongly consider a player rewards system that rewards players the more they play - it would be a nice thank you to the players that do. Same with volunteers I would think.

I play only at gencon so it’s not for my benefit.

I have never used the 3rd level bonus and would prefer it went away.

As far as bonuses for attendance at multiple cons/ multiple runs. I would like this a lot, but I would prefer that it did not give anything that affected the run directly and that it had no leaderboard of any kind. Something such as 1 point for every time you participate on a run and a list of things you can get for those points (such as a badge holder, lanyard, or t-shirt). Also, might want to consider a similar system for volunteers.