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TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #397

Xavon wrote: why not just allow multiples of any class.


This question keeps getting asked, it has been answered many times.

The answer is:

1. You'd need double the player cards, combat pucks, etc.
2. It is a rules nightmare to determine what stacks with what (two bardsongs? two prayers? two paladins guarding each other?).
3. What if two Rogues both want to do the box, now what? 2 rogue boxes in each room with rogue boxes?
4. Hard to design a dungeon for a party that might have as many as 10 and as few as 0 of any five classes.
5. It doesn't solve the problem anyway - there will be parties where 3 people want to play X, and we're back to square 1.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #398

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote: why not just allow multiples of any class.


This question keeps getting asked, it has been answered many times.

The answer is:

1. You'd need double the player cards, combat pucks, etc.
2. It is a rules nightmare to determine what stacks with what (two bardsongs? two prayers? two paladins guarding each other?).
3. What if two Rogues both want to do the box, now what? 2 rogue boxes in each room with rogue boxes?
4. Hard to design a dungeon for a party that might have as many as 10 and as few as 0 of any five classes.
5. It doesn't solve the problem anyway - there will be parties where 3 people want to play X, and we're back to square 1.


All Bard turkey leg run with legendary lutes and 5th level.
+40 to hit +40 damage to all turkey legs

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #399

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote: why not just allow multiples of any class.


This question keeps getting asked, it has been answered many times.

The answer is:

1. You'd need double the player cards, combat pucks, etc.
2. It is a rules nightmare to determine what stacks with what (two bardsongs? two prayers? two paladins guarding each other?).
3. What if two Rogues both want to do the box, now what? 2 rogue boxes in each room with rogue boxes?
4. Hard to design a dungeon for a party that might have as many as 10 and as few as 0 of any five classes.
5. It doesn't solve the problem anyway - there will be parties where 3 people want to play X, and we're back to square 1.


All Bard turkey leg run with legendary lutes and 5th level.
+40 to hit +40 damage to all turkey legs


Only if we had a token that allowed bardsong damage to be added to horn of blasting damage. 10 bards each doing 42 points of damage per round.

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Last edit: by edwin.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #400

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Matthew Hayward wrote:

Xavon wrote: why not just allow multiples of any class.


This question keeps getting asked, it has been answered many times.

The answer is:

1. You'd need double the player cards, combat pucks, etc.
2. It is a rules nightmare to determine what stacks with what (two bardsongs? two prayers? two paladins guarding each other?).
3. What if two Rogues both want to do the box, now what? 2 rogue boxes in each room with rogue boxes?
4. Hard to design a dungeon for a party that might have as many as 10 and as few as 0 of any five classes.
5. It doesn't solve the problem anyway - there will be parties where 3 people want to play X, and we're back to square 1.


1) You might need extra player cards, but those are reusable from year to year (most of the time). You probably wouldn't need double, it's not like every run is going to have this. Besides, player cards have run out before, so having extra might not be the worst thing. And pucks would not be double. There are already 14 pucks. If they were numbered AND color coded, you would need 20 total. So less than 50% more.
2) It really isn't. Same effects don't stack, the highest is applied. Simple rule from D&D (and many other games), easily applied here. Can't stack Bless, Alertness, Bard Song, etc. Guard is not an issue. It already says "You will be attacked instead .of the Guarded character if the DM determines that that character should be attacked by the monster with a melee attack" . If Pal 1 and Pal 2 both guard each other, and Pal 1 is attacked Pal 2 takes it. Pal 2 was never the target of the monster, so there is no loop back. There may be other interactions that are less simple, concede this I do...
3) Like this one. Although, in that case I would suggest they just take turns. And if the first one fails, the second gets to try, then the third...
4) Maybe. But if the players are determined to have an unbalanced party, it is on them. Or, the DM tweaks it a bit on the fly (Oh, no casters in this group, lower the physical damage resistance). Same as in a D&D printed mondule.
5) I never said 2. I said multiple (and you cut the part about managing it). Ten Fighters? Fine. Four Rangers, three Bards, and three Clerics? Go for it.
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #401

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Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.


Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.


THIS!


NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.


I understand what you're saying. But, at the same time, if I were running True Dungeon, I'd want as few barriers as possible to new players trying the game. It is already $80 per ticket at GENCON, which is a pretty big initial barrier. If new players were also required before the event to read and comprehend a bunch of materials, create an account and log onto the forums, figure out how to find the thread which corresponded to their run, and engaging to select a class.

Even if they can create an account and find their way to the correct thread on a forum they've never been to before, in order to pick a class they'd have to do a lot of research on the game in general (how combat is done, what puzzles are like, etc) plus research each class to figure out how each works and which they might prefer. That seems to me to be enough of a barrier that many players will either decide not to play TD at all, or decide to show up without doing all of that and be pretty unhappy that other group members have already claimed a number of the classes prior to the event.


Sorry in advance, this will be long.

Most people at GenCon are gamers. Games have rules. A no experience event is a bit more flexible/forgiving, but the rules are not completely ignored.

To wit from my own GC experience this year:
I signed up for an MHA TCG Pre-release sealed tournament. I immediately got an email telling me to go to the Jasco booth before the tournament to run a demo and receive the demo decks that the tournament would be using. Which I did. Out of the 16 players in the tournament, only 1 failed to do this. And while the organizers brought 2 sets of the demo decks, so that person was okay, they were perfectly willing to turn away anyone who didn't have a deck if they ran out.
I played in a Funkoverse board gamer prerelease and early purchase learn to play. I watched a certain yT game channel's how to play and sample game videos. Some of the people at the table hadn't. And the vids were for the Batman version while we were playing the Harry Potter version, so I still had questions. They had a person on hand to answer guide us, and we still followed the rules of the event and the game in general (though I didn't end up buying it, for various reasons).
I played in a Demon Hunters RPG event. Demon Hunters, for some reason, is listed as a FATE game (both last year and this year). It is not. It is a system inspired by FATE, but not the same. No where in the event description does it say this (though it is a No Experience type event). Both this year and last year, we had people show up (myself included last year) with FATE dice, expecting to play that system. One even left last year. But they did not change from their own system, and every who stayed still enjoyed it.
I played in a KeyForge Sealed Deck tournament. Again, No Experience event, and while I had watched games online, hadn't played it. I showed up early, and asked if any of the event runners could give me a quick demo. Because it was the first event and had time, they did. If they hadn't been able to, I wouldn't have complained, and would have done my best not to inconvenience my opponents with my inexperience. Even so I still had a few questions. And at the end, they told me I had to have the App to get my prizes. Because that is how their system worked. So I got the app (and found out I already had an account with the company from ordering a different game). If I had been unwilling/able, I would have had to forfeit my rewards.

My point? The event descriptions are frequently not the end all be all. Nor are the events themselves. There are things to do outside of them. And the rules don't change just because one or a few people are not aware of them. Some minor concessions can be made, but there is a limit. If TD were to choose to send the players here to set up, that would be well in keeping with what many other events are doing. And if the participants chose to ignore it, it is on them. not TD. We want new players, of course. But the new players have to want to participate, be willing to put in at least a little effort.

And if I was spending enough money on a 84 minute TD run to buy a board game or video game, you can bet I would want to put in some effort to get the most out of it. But then I did. Both with TD and other events. Maybe that makes me outside the norm, putting in a little effort and taking some person responsibility and trying to make sure I don't make things less fun for others...


Also, TD is in sort of a nebulous event space. It says No Experience, but that is a very broad category. And when I went to register an event last year, the default category. But TD is not a learn to play event, where everyone is expected to be new, and there is an extra degree of simplification and guidance. There is TD 101, but it is not mandatory. There is the sealed pack events, but even those are not the same thing as a regular 'learn to play' style event. There are not separate events for veterans. They tried that with the Nightmare events of the past, but that was just more proof that even if it is in the event description, some people won't read/care.

And frankly, even if they come here, do they really have to do research? They can sign up, find the thread and start talking. Get advice from vets and not have to look at the cards or tokens if they don't want to. They have to sign up anyway, if they want to get XP for the events. And, again, players who are willing to do that are the ones who will come back, who will support TD. They are the ones we should want.
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Xavon.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #402

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.


Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.


THIS!


NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.


I understand what you're saying. But, at the same time, if I were running True Dungeon, I'd want as few barriers as possible to new players trying the game. It is already $80 per ticket at GENCON, which is a pretty big initial barrier. If new players were also required before the event to read and comprehend a bunch of materials, create an account and log onto the forums, figure out how to find the thread which corresponded to their run, and engaging to select a class.

Even if they can create an account and find their way to the correct thread on a forum they've never been to before, in order to pick a class they'd have to do a lot of research on the game in general (how combat is done, what puzzles are like, etc) plus research each class to figure out how each works and which they might prefer. That seems to me to be enough of a barrier that many players will either decide not to play TD at all, or decide to show up without doing all of that and be pretty unhappy that other group members have already claimed a number of the classes prior to the event.


Sorry in advance, this will be long.

Most people at GenCon are gamers. Games have rules. A no experience event is a bit more flexible/forgiving, but the rules are not completely ignored.

To wit from my own GC experience this year:
I signed up for an MHA TCG Pre-release sealed tournament. I immediately got an email telling me to go to the Jasco booth before the tournament to run a demo and receive the demo decks that the tournament would be using. Which I did. Out of the 16 players in the tournament, only 1 failed to do this. And while the organizers brought 2 sets of the demo decks, so that person was okay, they were perfectly willing to turn away anyone who didn't have a deck if they ran out.
I played in a Funkoverse board gamer prerelease and early purchase learn to play. I watched a certain yT game channel's how to play and sample game videos. Some of the people at the table hadn't. And the vids were for the Batman version while we were playing the Harry Potter version, so I still had questions. They had a person on hand to answer guide us, and we still followed the rules of the event and the game in general (though I didn't end up buying it, for various reasons).
I played in a Demon Hunters RPG event. Demon Hunters, for some reason, is listed as a FATE game (both last year and this year). It is not. It is a system inspired by FATE, but not the same. No where in the event description does it say this (though it is a No Experience type event). Both this year and last year, we had people show up (myself included last year) with FATE dice, expecting to play that system. One even left last year. But they did not change from their own system, and every who stayed still enjoyed it.
I played in a KeyForge Sealed Deck tournament. Again, No Experience event, and while I had watched games online, hadn't played it. I showed up early, and asked if any of the event runners could give me a quick demo. Because it was the first event and had time, they did. If they hadn't been able to, I wouldn't have complained, and would have done my best not to inconvenience my opponents with my inexperience. Even so I still had a few questions. And at the end, they told me I had to have the App to get my prizes. Because that is how their system worked. So I got the app (and found out I already had an account with the company from ordering a different game). If I had been unwilling/able, I would have had to forfeit my rewards.

My point? The event descriptions are frequently not the end all be all. Nor are the events themselves. There are things to do outside of them. And the rules don't change just because one or a few people are not aware of them. Some minor concessions can be made, but there is a limit. If TD were to choose to send the players here to set up, that would be well in keeping with what many other events are doing. And if the participants chose to ignore it, it is on them. not TD. We want new players, of course. But the new players have to want to participate, be willing to put in at least a little effort.

And if I was spending enough money on a 84 minute TD run to buy a board game or video game, you can bet I would want to put in some effort to get the most out of it. But then I did. Both with TD and other events. Maybe that makes me outside the norm, putting in a little effort and taking some person responsibility and trying to make sure I don't make things less fun for others...


Also, TD is in sort of a nebulous event space. It says No Experience, but that is a very broad category. And when I went to register an event last year, the default category. But TD is not a learn to play event, where everyone is expected to be new, and there is an extra degree of simplification and guidance. There is TD 101, but it is not mandatory. There is the sealed pack events, but even those are not the same thing as a regular 'learn to play' style event. There are not separate events for veterans. They tried that with the Nightmare events of the past, but that was just more proof that even if it is in the event description, some people won't read/care.

And frankly, even if they come here, do they really have to do research? They can sign up, find the thread and start talking. Get advice from vets and not have to look at the cards or tokens if they don't want to. They have to sign up anyway, if they want to get XP for the events. And, again, players who are willing to do that are the ones who will come back, who will support TD. They are the ones we should want.


Personally I think if a event is no experience required then we should expect most new players to be completely unprepared.

I run a game at origins every year, I expect fully to need to teach everyone that shows up, since it’s no experience required. The game for anyone interested is Dragons Night Out.
Origins requires me to put in a game system, so I always put reaper miniatures warlord system, but it’s a slightly altered version of the old rule set that we were using when reaper used when I was on the demo team.
Point being based on my experience we should expect almost no one to read the rules before playing the first time (I didn’t read the rules until almost a year after playing my first 2 times)

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #403

  • Xavon
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Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.


Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.


THIS!


NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.


I understand what you're saying. But, at the same time, if I were running True Dungeon, I'd want as few barriers as possible to new players trying the game. It is already $80 per ticket at GENCON, which is a pretty big initial barrier. If new players were also required before the event to read and comprehend a bunch of materials, create an account and log onto the forums, figure out how to find the thread which corresponded to their run, and engaging to select a class.

Even if they can create an account and find their way to the correct thread on a forum they've never been to before, in order to pick a class they'd have to do a lot of research on the game in general (how combat is done, what puzzles are like, etc) plus research each class to figure out how each works and which they might prefer. That seems to me to be enough of a barrier that many players will either decide not to play TD at all, or decide to show up without doing all of that and be pretty unhappy that other group members have already claimed a number of the classes prior to the event.


Sorry in advance, this will be long.

Most people at GenCon are gamers. Games have rules. A no experience event is a bit more flexible/forgiving, but the rules are not completely ignored.

To wit from my own GC experience this year:
I signed up for an MHA TCG Pre-release sealed tournament. I immediately got an email telling me to go to the Jasco booth before the tournament to run a demo and receive the demo decks that the tournament would be using. Which I did. Out of the 16 players in the tournament, only 1 failed to do this. And while the organizers brought 2 sets of the demo decks, so that person was okay, they were perfectly willing to turn away anyone who didn't have a deck if they ran out.
I played in a Funkoverse board gamer prerelease and early purchase learn to play. I watched a certain yT game channel's how to play and sample game videos. Some of the people at the table hadn't. And the vids were for the Batman version while we were playing the Harry Potter version, so I still had questions. They had a person on hand to answer guide us, and we still followed the rules of the event and the game in general (though I didn't end up buying it, for various reasons).
I played in a Demon Hunters RPG event. Demon Hunters, for some reason, is listed as a FATE game (both last year and this year). It is not. It is a system inspired by FATE, but not the same. No where in the event description does it say this (though it is a No Experience type event). Both this year and last year, we had people show up (myself included last year) with FATE dice, expecting to play that system. One even left last year. But they did not change from their own system, and every who stayed still enjoyed it.
I played in a KeyForge Sealed Deck tournament. Again, No Experience event, and while I had watched games online, hadn't played it. I showed up early, and asked if any of the event runners could give me a quick demo. Because it was the first event and had time, they did. If they hadn't been able to, I wouldn't have complained, and would have done my best not to inconvenience my opponents with my inexperience. Even so I still had a few questions. And at the end, they told me I had to have the App to get my prizes. Because that is how their system worked. So I got the app (and found out I already had an account with the company from ordering a different game). If I had been unwilling/able, I would have had to forfeit my rewards.

My point? The event descriptions are frequently not the end all be all. Nor are the events themselves. There are things to do outside of them. And the rules don't change just because one or a few people are not aware of them. Some minor concessions can be made, but there is a limit. If TD were to choose to send the players here to set up, that would be well in keeping with what many other events are doing. And if the participants chose to ignore it, it is on them. not TD. We want new players, of course. But the new players have to want to participate, be willing to put in at least a little effort.

And if I was spending enough money on a 84 minute TD run to buy a board game or video game, you can bet I would want to put in some effort to get the most out of it. But then I did. Both with TD and other events. Maybe that makes me outside the norm, putting in a little effort and taking some person responsibility and trying to make sure I don't make things less fun for others...


Also, TD is in sort of a nebulous event space. It says No Experience, but that is a very broad category. And when I went to register an event last year, the default category. But TD is not a learn to play event, where everyone is expected to be new, and there is an extra degree of simplification and guidance. There is TD 101, but it is not mandatory. There is the sealed pack events, but even those are not the same thing as a regular 'learn to play' style event. There are not separate events for veterans. They tried that with the Nightmare events of the past, but that was just more proof that even if it is in the event description, some people won't read/care.

And frankly, even if they come here, do they really have to do research? They can sign up, find the thread and start talking. Get advice from vets and not have to look at the cards or tokens if they don't want to. They have to sign up anyway, if they want to get XP for the events. And, again, players who are willing to do that are the ones who will come back, who will support TD. They are the ones we should want.


Personally I think if a event is no experience required then we should expect most new players to be completely unprepared.

I run a game at origins every year, I expect fully to need to teach everyone that shows up, since it’s no experience required. The game for anyone interested is Dragons Night Out.
Origins requires me to put in a game system, so I always put reaper miniatures warlord system, but it’s a slightly altered version of the old rule set that we were using when reaper used when I was on the demo team.
Point being based on my experience we should expect almost no one to read the rules before playing the first time (I didn’t read the rules until almost a year after playing my first 2 times)


And part of my point (which I forgot to add to the original post), is maybe TD101 and the Sealed packs should be 'No Experience' and the regular TDs should be 'Some Experience'. Not that most people will pay attention or that is will stop them from signing up.
Applications programming is a race between software engineers, who strive to produce idiot-proof programs, and the Universe, which strives to produce bigger idiots.  <br /><br />So far, the Universe is winning.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #404

Xavon wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.


Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.


THIS!


NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.


I understand what you're saying. But, at the same time, if I were running True Dungeon, I'd want as few barriers as possible to new players trying the game. It is already $80 per ticket at GENCON, which is a pretty big initial barrier. If new players were also required before the event to read and comprehend a bunch of materials, create an account and log onto the forums, figure out how to find the thread which corresponded to their run, and engaging to select a class.

Even if they can create an account and find their way to the correct thread on a forum they've never been to before, in order to pick a class they'd have to do a lot of research on the game in general (how combat is done, what puzzles are like, etc) plus research each class to figure out how each works and which they might prefer. That seems to me to be enough of a barrier that many players will either decide not to play TD at all, or decide to show up without doing all of that and be pretty unhappy that other group members have already claimed a number of the classes prior to the event.


Sorry in advance, this will be long.

Most people at GenCon are gamers. Games have rules. A no experience event is a bit more flexible/forgiving, but the rules are not completely ignored.

To wit from my own GC experience this year:
I signed up for an MHA TCG Pre-release sealed tournament. I immediately got an email telling me to go to the Jasco booth before the tournament to run a demo and receive the demo decks that the tournament would be using. Which I did. Out of the 16 players in the tournament, only 1 failed to do this. And while the organizers brought 2 sets of the demo decks, so that person was okay, they were perfectly willing to turn away anyone who didn't have a deck if they ran out.
I played in a Funkoverse board gamer prerelease and early purchase learn to play. I watched a certain yT game channel's how to play and sample game videos. Some of the people at the table hadn't. And the vids were for the Batman version while we were playing the Harry Potter version, so I still had questions. They had a person on hand to answer guide us, and we still followed the rules of the event and the game in general (though I didn't end up buying it, for various reasons).
I played in a Demon Hunters RPG event. Demon Hunters, for some reason, is listed as a FATE game (both last year and this year). It is not. It is a system inspired by FATE, but not the same. No where in the event description does it say this (though it is a No Experience type event). Both this year and last year, we had people show up (myself included last year) with FATE dice, expecting to play that system. One even left last year. But they did not change from their own system, and every who stayed still enjoyed it.
I played in a KeyForge Sealed Deck tournament. Again, No Experience event, and while I had watched games online, hadn't played it. I showed up early, and asked if any of the event runners could give me a quick demo. Because it was the first event and had time, they did. If they hadn't been able to, I wouldn't have complained, and would have done my best not to inconvenience my opponents with my inexperience. Even so I still had a few questions. And at the end, they told me I had to have the App to get my prizes. Because that is how their system worked. So I got the app (and found out I already had an account with the company from ordering a different game). If I had been unwilling/able, I would have had to forfeit my rewards.

My point? The event descriptions are frequently not the end all be all. Nor are the events themselves. There are things to do outside of them. And the rules don't change just because one or a few people are not aware of them. Some minor concessions can be made, but there is a limit. If TD were to choose to send the players here to set up, that would be well in keeping with what many other events are doing. And if the participants chose to ignore it, it is on them. not TD. We want new players, of course. But the new players have to want to participate, be willing to put in at least a little effort.

And if I was spending enough money on a 84 minute TD run to buy a board game or video game, you can bet I would want to put in some effort to get the most out of it. But then I did. Both with TD and other events. Maybe that makes me outside the norm, putting in a little effort and taking some person responsibility and trying to make sure I don't make things less fun for others...


Also, TD is in sort of a nebulous event space. It says No Experience, but that is a very broad category. And when I went to register an event last year, the default category. But TD is not a learn to play event, where everyone is expected to be new, and there is an extra degree of simplification and guidance. There is TD 101, but it is not mandatory. There is the sealed pack events, but even those are not the same thing as a regular 'learn to play' style event. There are not separate events for veterans. They tried that with the Nightmare events of the past, but that was just more proof that even if it is in the event description, some people won't read/care.

And frankly, even if they come here, do they really have to do research? They can sign up, find the thread and start talking. Get advice from vets and not have to look at the cards or tokens if they don't want to. They have to sign up anyway, if they want to get XP for the events. And, again, players who are willing to do that are the ones who will come back, who will support TD. They are the ones we should want.


Personally I think if a event is no experience required then we should expect most new players to be completely unprepared.

I run a game at origins every year, I expect fully to need to teach everyone that shows up, since it’s no experience required. The game for anyone interested is Dragons Night Out.
Origins requires me to put in a game system, so I always put reaper miniatures warlord system, but it’s a slightly altered version of the old rule set that we were using when reaper used when I was on the demo team.
Point being based on my experience we should expect almost no one to read the rules before playing the first time (I didn’t read the rules until almost a year after playing my first 2 times)


And part of my point (which I forgot to add to the original post), is maybe TD101 and the Sealed packs should be 'No Experience' and the regular TDs should be 'Some Experience'. Not that most people will pay attention or that is will stop them from signing up.


With TD at pax west very soon, I would say the expectations should be regular dungeons having no experience.

And let’s not forget we have some great trainers that do a great job of teaching what you need to know, some great coaches filling out the party card and answering general questions.

Personally the main benefit I see for the sealed dungeon is that new players can sample the game at a lower price, and if it’s a retro dungeon then the vets that missed it can enjoy it as well.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #405

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Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.


Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.


THIS!


NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.


I understand what you're saying. But, at the same time, if I were running True Dungeon, I'd want as few barriers as possible to new players trying the game. It is already $80 per ticket at GENCON, which is a pretty big initial barrier. If new players were also required before the event to read and comprehend a bunch of materials, create an account and log onto the forums, figure out how to find the thread which corresponded to their run, and engaging to select a class.

Even if they can create an account and find their way to the correct thread on a forum they've never been to before, in order to pick a class they'd have to do a lot of research on the game in general (how combat is done, what puzzles are like, etc) plus research each class to figure out how each works and which they might prefer. That seems to me to be enough of a barrier that many players will either decide not to play TD at all, or decide to show up without doing all of that and be pretty unhappy that other group members have already claimed a number of the classes prior to the event.


Mike is right. Personally - I too like to read the rules and get t know the game. But personal preferences are one thing, the game and how it is presented to the public, especially brand new or casual players is something else entirely. The argument that "it should be reasonable..." is as varied and diverse as the population attending any gaming con. "reasonable" is extremely subjective.
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They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to use once! Oh - and if you really need to think about whether you're going to use the fireball or the + umpty staff of butt-whooping - you're likely to find yourself full of arrows, or fangs, or nasty knives & swords and such. Don't think - just shoot!

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #406

Grekel! wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.


Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.


THIS!


NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.


I understand what you're saying. But, at the same time, if I were running True Dungeon, I'd want as few barriers as possible to new players trying the game. It is already $80 per ticket at GENCON, which is a pretty big initial barrier. If new players were also required before the event to read and comprehend a bunch of materials, create an account and log onto the forums, figure out how to find the thread which corresponded to their run, and engaging to select a class.

Even if they can create an account and find their way to the correct thread on a forum they've never been to before, in order to pick a class they'd have to do a lot of research on the game in general (how combat is done, what puzzles are like, etc) plus research each class to figure out how each works and which they might prefer. That seems to me to be enough of a barrier that many players will either decide not to play TD at all, or decide to show up without doing all of that and be pretty unhappy that other group members have already claimed a number of the classes prior to the event.


Mike is right. Personally - I too like to read the rules and get t know the game. But personal preferences are one thing, the game and how it is presented to the public, especially brand new or casual players is something else entirely. The argument that "it should be reasonable..." is as varied and diverse as the population attending any gaming con. "reasonable" is extremely subjective.


I'd been playing TD for probably 5-6 years before I was even aware there was a players handbook, or had any interest in reading it.

I doubt I'm special in that regard.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #407

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Xavon wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.


Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.


THIS!


NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.


I understand what you're saying. But, at the same time, if I were running True Dungeon, I'd want as few barriers as possible to new players trying the game. It is already $80 per ticket at GENCON, which is a pretty big initial barrier. If new players were also required before the event to read and comprehend a bunch of materials, create an account and log onto the forums, figure out how to find the thread which corresponded to their run, and engaging to select a class.

Even if they can create an account and find their way to the correct thread on a forum they've never been to before, in order to pick a class they'd have to do a lot of research on the game in general (how combat is done, what puzzles are like, etc) plus research each class to figure out how each works and which they might prefer. That seems to me to be enough of a barrier that many players will either decide not to play TD at all, or decide to show up without doing all of that and be pretty unhappy that other group members have already claimed a number of the classes prior to the event.





Also, TD is in sort of a nebulous event space. It says No Experience, but that is a very broad category.

I would say "no experience" may be sweeping, but in all fairness there is still the expectation that "no experience required" means exactly that.

And when I went to register an event last year, the default category. But TD is not a learn to play event, where everyone is expected to be new, and there is an extra degree of simplification and guidance.

TD most certainly does not expect everyone to be new. But it has always been (at least as long as I have played) a game where a brand new group of players could come and try out the game and have a reasonable expectation of enjoying it. That said when I started, the parties were smaller and for a group of new players - the coaches had a ghost of a chance to explain some of the gameplay and do a bit more than just get the party card filled. In all fairness - a lot has changed, more players and more complexity nearly guarantee that time to spend explaining the game to newcomers is all but nonexistent. But if we're saying that the game has become of a format that is not approachable to a walk-in, then we all seriously need to be having a very different discussion. I agree that we have challenges, but to grow the game, it has got to remain a thing that can be played by literally anyone who wants to give it a shot. (Again my opinion only).


There is TD 101, but it is not mandatory. There is the sealed pack events, but even those are not the same thing as a regular 'learn to play' style event.

Maybe, but it is my understanding that these were intended as good opportunities for new or newer players.


There are not separate events for veterans. They tried that with the Nightmare events of the past, but that was just more proof that even if it is in the event description, some people won't read/care.

And frankly, even if they come here, do they really have to do research? They can sign up, find the thread and start talking. Get advice from vets and not have to look at the cards or tokens if they don't want to. They have to sign up anyway, if they want to get XP for the events. And, again, players who are willing to do that are the ones who will come back, who will support TD. They are the ones we should want.


That last bit is the one that concerns me the most. This is the second time I've heard a variant of this statement in this thread...

I'm just going to say this and leave it. I have, in almost 50 years of life on this planet, never experienced, or read about a group that started out being openly welcoming of any who wanted to participate, with zero restrictions other than a willingness to be a part of the group - who then became concerned with "who we want in the group" or "who we should want" or any other variation... that didn't have all manner of negatives as a result of such a shift. By definition - that attitude is less open, and less welcoming, and can be a starting point for less pleasant attitudes.
PROUD MEMBER OF THE DDA! :)
They say that the best weapon is the one you never have to use. I respectfully disagree. I prefer the weapon you only have to use once! Oh - and if you really need to think about whether you're going to use the fireball or the + umpty staff of butt-whooping - you're likely to find yourself full of arrows, or fangs, or nasty knives & swords and such. Don't think - just shoot!

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 4 years 9 months ago #408

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off


This is still the simplest and IMO best idea. And no harm in having players discuss and come to agreements on classes before the start time.
"Many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our point of view" - Obi Wan Kenobi

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