TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

I think we are all in favor of a cut off time for picking class. I think the 23 minute example is not a fair point to argue the 3rd level bonus over. Most often if someone is that late the are apologizing to everyone for being late and just asking what classes are left. The 23 minute late argument seems like a straw man corner case.
Best argument for keeping the 3rd level bonus is that it helps players with a small collection and have put all there resources into 1 class (Bard, rogue, Cleric for example).
I am in favor of limiting how often you can pull 3rd level rank because I do understand it can be a bad look as well.

I think if you are more than 5 minutes late past the start time you should lose the right for 3rd level bonus and roll offs. This seems practical.

I proposed earlier in the thread a idea for a once a year card you could use that must be turned in but don’t see any comments on the merits of that idea for or against. Another idea in that vain that I have not proposed is when you hit 3rd level there could be a order option for that level that gives the player 5 runestones that allows you to use the 3rd level bonus. So you could only ever use the bonus 5 times and your giving up something to do it.

Overall I’m in favor of keeping the 3rd level bonus (in some form) because it helps retuning players that don’t have massive collections like mine, and only play each dungeon once, since this is the group of players that removing this bonus hurts.

To specifically address your concerns, I think any time past the start time is too late. Players are allowed and encouraged to arrive early, and vets playing back to back often have enough of a collection.
In addition, I've heard the coaches in this thread say that all 24 minutes are necessary, if not inadequate.

The 23 min example may be a "straw man" corner case, but, at least one interpretation of the current rules would allow it.

As for the idea ofimiting "pulling rank" to 1-5 times per year, I like it. I do worry that if we limit it, it might get used more, as people tend to use things they are limited on.

I get that we are trying to protect 2 groups
(Newest players, vets with tokens for only 1 class) so I think we do that by helping new players understand why this is happening (signs they wont read, etc), and improving the existing rules to clarify just when this can and cant be done(not after start time or once something is written on the party card.)

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

I think we are all in favor of a cut off time for picking class. I think the 23 minute example is not a fair point to argue the 3rd level bonus over. Most often if someone is that late the are apologizing to everyone for being late and just asking what classes are left. The 23 minute late argument seems like a straw man corner case.
Best argument for keeping the 3rd level bonus is that it helps players with a small collection and have put all there resources into 1 class (Bard, rogue, Cleric for example).
I am in favor of limiting how often you can pull 3rd level rank because I do understand it can be a bad look as well.

I think if you are more than 5 minutes late past the start time you should lose the right for 3rd level bonus and roll offs. This seems practical.

I proposed earlier in the thread a idea for a once a year card you could use that must be turned in but don’t see any comments on the merits of that idea for or against. Another idea in that vain that I have not proposed is when you hit 3rd level there could be a order option for that level that gives the player 5 runestones that allows you to use the 3rd level bonus. So you could only ever use the bonus 5 times and your giving up something to do it.

Overall I’m in favor of keeping the 3rd level bonus (in some form) because it helps retuning players that don’t have massive collections like mine, and only play each dungeon once, since this is the group of players that removing this bonus hurts.

To specifically address your concerns, I think any time past the start time is too late. Players are allowed and encouraged to arrive early, and vets playing back to back often have enough of a collection.
In addition, I've heard the coaches in this thread say that all 24 minutes are necessary, if not inadequate.

The 23 min example may be a "straw man" corner case, but, at least one interpretation of the current rules would allow it.

As for the idea ofimiting "pulling rank" to 1-5 times per year, I like it. I do worry that if we limit it, it might get used more, as people tend to use things they are limited on.

I get that we are trying to protect 2 groups
(Newest players, vets with tokens for only 1 class) so I think we do that by helping new players understand why this is happening (signs they wont read, etc), and improving the existing rules to clarify just when this can and cant be done(not after start time or once something is written on the party card.)

As for the limited pulling rank. I was proposing either once a year card, or you get 5 runestones when you hit 3rd level, once they are gone, they are gone, so 5 uses ever. They take the runestone slot for the run so it’s a minor detriment.

Runestone fitting base

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

I think we are all in favor of a cut off time for picking class. I think the 23 minute example is not a fair point to argue the 3rd level bonus over. Most often if someone is that late the are apologizing to everyone for being late and just asking what classes are left. The 23 minute late argument seems like a straw man corner case.
Best argument for keeping the 3rd level bonus is that it helps players with a small collection and have put all there resources into 1 class (Bard, rogue, Cleric for example).
I am in favor of limiting how often you can pull 3rd level rank because I do understand it can be a bad look as well.

I think if you are more than 5 minutes late past the start time you should lose the right for 3rd level bonus and roll offs. This seems practical.

I proposed earlier in the thread a idea for a once a year card you could use that must be turned in but don’t see any comments on the merits of that idea for or against. Another idea in that vain that I have not proposed is when you hit 3rd level there could be a order option for that level that gives the player 5 runestones that allows you to use the 3rd level bonus. So you could only ever use the bonus 5 times and your giving up something to do it.

Overall I’m in favor of keeping the 3rd level bonus (in some form) because it helps retuning players that don’t have massive collections like mine, and only play each dungeon once, since this is the group of players that removing this bonus hurts.

To specifically address your concerns, I think any time past the start time is too late. Players are allowed and encouraged to arrive early, and vets playing back to back often have enough of a collection.
In addition, I've heard the coaches in this thread say that all 24 minutes are necessary, if not inadequate.

The 23 min example may be a "straw man" corner case, but, at least one interpretation of the current rules would allow it.

As for the idea ofimiting "pulling rank" to 1-5 times per year, I like it. I do worry that if we limit it, it might get used more, as people tend to use things they are limited on.

I get that we are trying to protect 2 groups
(Newest players, vets with tokens for only 1 class) so I think we do that by helping new players understand why this is happening (signs they wont read, etc), and improving the existing rules to clarify just when this can and cant be done(not after start time or once something is written on the party card.)

As for the limited pulling rank. I was proposing either once a year card, or you get 5 runestones when you hit 3rd level, once they are gone, they are gone, so 5 uses ever. They take the runestone slot for the run so it’s a minor detriment.

Out of curiosity, is there anyone on this thread that has used the Level 3+ bonus more than once in a year? Even if we keep that bonus (which I hope we don't), I'd hate to unnecessarily complicate it. I do agree with an earlier poster, if we formalize it by having a once a year card, or runestones, or something similar, maybe that is just going to incentivize people to use that bonus while now most people probably aren't even aware it exists.

I've never used it. I've only been in a party where it was used once. But then I haven't played in a PUG since 2012, so I'm not the best yardstick.

Never used it, Would have at my second con but the other person also had it and was way early to the room for me to beat him to the card 20+ minutes early. I chose to be the bigger man, and let him have it instead of a roll off.
Now days I play so much at a con that I don’t really care that much on class if at hardcore. Nightmare I just pre arrange runs on the forms, and that seems to work.

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote: The rules should state clearly and it should be stated on the event description at time of ticketing that all players are recommended to log in to the forum, work with others to coordinate their desired classes.

Then...

Players who coordinated get first pick (assuming they agreed). This would possibly give folks a chance to change runs if the group doesn't work out.

If it was not worked out between players on the forum...

Player who has class prebuilt with app gets first pick. (We should be promoting players for helping to save time).

This all assumes that player are on time.

If all else fails, roll off.

Worrying about being able to play my class has been a huge stresser for me. I mentioned previously that I haven't invoked the rule of 3, typically because my mom taught me to be kind and to share my toys... however... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.

I think giving first picks to people that used the App or that coordinated on the forums are both problematic, as they favor veterans over new players.

Not if the event details direct them to the forum and spell this out. And the email that goes out would do the same, to reinforce it.

If they sign up for an event with out reading the details and the 'things you need to know/do' email, it is their own fault.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: Never used it, Would have at my second con but the other person also had it and was way early to the room for me to beat him to the card 20+ minutes early. I chose to be the bigger man, and let him have it instead of a roll off.
Now days I play so much at a con that I don’t really care that much on class if at hardcore. Nightmare I just pre arrange runs on the forms, and that seems to work.

This is pretty much me. Have never used it.

I get use out of my main build by signing up for runs on the forum. When I run with PUGs I'm ok with just about any class. I usually get to rooms early, but I'll hold off on selecting class until the official start time and then I'll select from what's left.

I've never had an issue with someone showing up after the start time and not expecting to pick from what's left. If they did, I'm pretty sure I would just defer. It's just not something worth arguing about from my perspective. But admittedly, I would feel different if I only ran each dungeon once or twice a year. In that case I'd want to use my preferred build every chance I got.

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.

Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.

THIS!

NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.

Mike Steele wrote: Out of curiosity, is there anyone on this thread that has used the Level 3+ bonus more than once in a year? Even if we keep that bonus (which I hope we don't), I'd hate to unnecessarily complicate it. I do agree with an earlier poster, if we formalize it by having a once a year card, or runestones, or something similar, maybe that is just going to incentivize people to use that bonus while now most people probably aren't even aware it exists.

I've never used it at all. I do mostly PUGs, and the few times others have wanted Monk, I've been fine shifting to one of the WIzards. And have never had all three asked for.

Frankly, before this thread, I had forgotten this perk existed.

Grekel! wrote:

Naarg wrote: We already have a second Wizard and Fighter that helps with contention on those classes... what about making alternates of some of the other classes, and just bringing those cards in as needed, like they used to do with the 5th level cards? Say, if you are a higher level player and someone already has the ranger when you get to the coaching room, you could just ask for the "Elf Ranger" card from the coach?

It’s a neat idea.

It does however require a nit insubstantial amount of effort for the designers of TD as well as the apps... to stay consistent- the “gnome ranger” would need some unique tweaks so it isn’t just a straight carbon copy... and that would mean all character generators would need more work to get updated...

Also - not sure you’ll ever see two rogue slots- no matter how bad people want it.

I suspect as the game grows, there may need to be a redress of this issue... but right now it is manageable within the existing game as it is... (I think - as is evidenced by the content of this thread - that’s not a universally agreed on thing...)

I've thought for a while that Rogue and Cleric should have seconds, as the other two of the primary four.

But we get into party card design issues, and space, and why not just allow multiples of any class. Which, by the way, I agree that having slots on the card and pucks be BOTH numbered and color coded and allowing any combination of classes would be nice, if it could be worked out...

Xavon wrote:

Grekel! wrote:

edwin wrote:

Brokkr wrote: No experience is required to create a forum account or use the app. The player is still free to show up with out doing either.

Reminds me of an rpg I signed up for at GenCon. I showed up and GM expected me to have a character in an online application. GM said email was sent out. What email since I expected event lisrings to define everything I need to do. No cost either. Delayed the game for 15 minutes for everybody. That would be an issue for TD since they have a schedule to maintain.

THIS!

NOT THIS!

I had a big rant typed out, but it was getting too long and too personal. But long story short, I find it personally untenable not to read ALL materials associated with an event/game.

I understand what you're saying. But, at the same time, if I were running True Dungeon, I'd want as few barriers as possible to new players trying the game. It is already $80 per ticket at GENCON, which is a pretty big initial barrier. If new players were also required before the event to read and comprehend a bunch of materials, create an account and log onto the forums, figure out how to find the thread which corresponded to their run, and engaging to select a class.

Even if they can create an account and find their way to the correct thread on a forum they've never been to before, in order to pick a class they'd have to do a lot of research on the game in general (how combat is done, what puzzles are like, etc) plus research each class to figure out how each works and which they might prefer. That seems to me to be enough of a barrier that many players will either decide not to play TD at all, or decide to show up without doing all of that and be pretty unhappy that other group members have already claimed a number of the classes prior to the event.