TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

travis wrote: quick poll to determine whether a poll for agreeing with picc is necessary.

I think we should just make a decision. I've done so, I've decided we're having a poll, here it is:

forms.gle/GXr583ypW9PYCvk56

Mike Steele wrote: I'm still 100% in favor of eliminating the 3rd level bonus, but it seems the trend is going the other way right now.

That’s how it goes... like weebly wobbly timey wimey...

travis wrote: quick poll to determine whether a poll for agreeing with picc is necessary.

But first a poll to see how many think a polling of polls is fair.

Grekel! wrote:

travis wrote: quick poll to determine whether a poll for agreeing with picc is necessary.

But first a poll to see how many think a polling of polls is fair.

Though I’m beginning to wonder if this is all getting too poll-arizing...?

Picc wrote:

David Zych wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'm still 100% in favor of eliminating the 3rd level bonus, but it seems the trend is going the other way right now.

I am too, but haven't had any reason to keep posting -- I've already articulated all my reasons, and I don't feel like anyone in the status quo camp has offered actual reasons for keeping the lv3 rule that we can attempt to refute (except for "nothing better has been proposed" which is already thoroughly refuted)

Maybe the forums need a "poll" feature so that after 366 posts of discussion we can all vote our opinions and present a summary result to TPTB?

Honestly I would rather TPTB just read the thread and made a decision. If we add a poll odds are the 10 people who participated in this thread will vote in line with the opinions expressed, then some number of others who won't bother having read the arguments will bote from the hip with little thought.

TLDR imo, Debate > vote

But seriously - what Picc said...

travis wrote: quick poll to determine whether a poll for agreeing with picc is necessary.

I vote yes

*glass break* holy crap... I get the extra HP if I want it.

That's not really the frustration which makes things less fun... it's really the not getting to use the tokens I invested in, but I had not considered that, very interesting.

travis wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Really? Are you saying that I have to spend more time creating 3-4 back up classes, buy more tokens, do MORE research to understand them when we seem to be saying we shouldn't require a newbie to do basic research of how the game played?

travis wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Then I dont get the hp bump

there is a real easy solution to that problem...

no, i'm saying you are the one who keeps track of your HP. if you did the work to get the bonus HP and didnt get to use it because of a die-roll, then make your own decision about what to do from there...

my point is that if missing out on 1-2 HP is really causing you to lose enjoyment of this event you have spent multiple thousands of dollars on, then you can very easily fix that.

Guedoji wrote: *glass break* holy crap... I get the extra HP if I want it.

That's not really the frustration which makes things less fun... it's really the not getting to use the tokens I invested in, but I had not considered that, very interesting.

travis wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Really? Are you saying that I have to spend more time creating 3-4 back up classes, buy more tokens, do MORE research to understand them when we seem to be saying we shouldn't require a newbie to do basic research of how the game played?

travis wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Then I dont get the hp bump

there is a real easy solution to that problem...

no, i'm saying you are the one who keeps track of your HP. if you did the work to get the bonus HP and didnt get to use it because of a die-roll, then make your own decision about what to do from there...

my point is that if missing out on 1-2 HP is really causing you to lose enjoyment of this event you have spent multiple thousands of dollars on, then you can very easily fix that.

Would you mind posting your build for your preferred class? There are some pretty sharp build makers on the forums. I’m sure we could offer some ideas for adapting to other classes.

I've seen my index threads pop up a few times as a topic of conversation here, and I felt that I should drop in and clarify a few things.

• I do not create any threads (except for runs I happen to be on). All I do is provide a list of links to threads that other people have made for their runs.
• These threads are not official. There are no official threads anywhere. If someone makes a thread for a run that already has a thread, I'll point them to the existing thread, but that still does not make it official. That's just me trying to be helpful.
• The statistics I post are based solely on the threads that are created. I do not have any special insight into who buys how many tickets.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

I think we are all in favor of a cut off time for picking class. I think the 23 minute example is not a fair point to argue the 3rd level bonus over. Most often if someone is that late the are apologizing to everyone for being late and just asking what classes are left. The 23 minute late argument seems like a straw man corner case.
Best argument for keeping the 3rd level bonus is that it helps players with a small collection and have put all there resources into 1 class (Bard, rogue, Cleric for example).
I am in favor of limiting how often you can pull 3rd level rank because I do understand it can be a bad look as well.

I think if you are more than 5 minutes late past the start time you should lose the right for 3rd level bonus and roll offs. This seems practical.

I proposed earlier in the thread a idea for a once a year card you could use that must be turned in but don’t see any comments on the merits of that idea for or against. Another idea in that vain that I have not proposed is when you hit 3rd level there could be a order option for that level that gives the player 5 runestones that allows you to use the 3rd level bonus. So you could only ever use the bonus 5 times and your giving up something to do it.

Overall I’m in favor of keeping the 3rd level bonus (in some form) because it helps retuning players that don’t have massive collections like mine, and only play each dungeon once, since this is the group of players that removing this bonus hurts.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

I think we are all in favor of a cut off time for picking class. I think the 23 minute example is not a fair point to argue the 3rd level bonus over. Most often if someone is that late the are apologizing to everyone for being late and just asking what classes are left. The 23 minute late argument seems like a straw man corner case.
Best argument for keeping the 3rd level bonus is that it helps players with a small collection and have put all there resources into 1 class (Bard, rogue, Cleric for example).
I am in favor of limiting how often you can pull 3rd level rank because I do understand it can be a bad look as well.

I think if you are more than 5 minutes late past the start time you should lose the right for 3rd level bonus and roll offs. This seems practical.

I proposed earlier in the thread a idea for a once a year card you could use that must be turned in but don’t see any comments on the merits of that idea for or against. Another idea in that vain that I have not proposed is when you hit 3rd level there could be a order option for that level that gives the player 5 runestones that allows you to use the 3rd level bonus. So you could only ever use the bonus 5 times and your giving up something to do it.

Overall I’m in favor of keeping the 3rd level bonus (in some form) because it helps retuning players that don’t have massive collections like mine, and only play each dungeon once, since this is the group of players that removing this bonus hurts.

Wayne, I appreciate you putting down your reasons for wanting to keep the third level bonus. I'm still in favor of getting rid of it entirely because I think it runs the risk of alienating players every time it is used, but I do appreciate you sharing your point of view.

Mike Steele wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

I think we are all in favor of a cut off time for picking class. I think the 23 minute example is not a fair point to argue the 3rd level bonus over. Most often if someone is that late the are apologizing to everyone for being late and just asking what classes are left. The 23 minute late argument seems like a straw man corner case.
Best argument for keeping the 3rd level bonus is that it helps players with a small collection and have put all there resources into 1 class (Bard, rogue, Cleric for example).
I am in favor of limiting how often you can pull 3rd level rank because I do understand it can be a bad look as well.

I think if you are more than 5 minutes late past the start time you should lose the right for 3rd level bonus and roll offs. This seems practical.

I proposed earlier in the thread a idea for a once a year card you could use that must be turned in but don’t see any comments on the merits of that idea for or against. Another idea in that vain that I have not proposed is when you hit 3rd level there could be a order option for that level that gives the player 5 runestones that allows you to use the 3rd level bonus. So you could only ever use the bonus 5 times and your giving up something to do it.

Overall I’m in favor of keeping the 3rd level bonus (in some form) because it helps retuning players that don’t have massive collections like mine, and only play each dungeon once, since this is the group of players that removing this bonus hurts.

Wayne, I appreciate you putting down your reasons for wanting to keep the third level bonus. I'm still in favor of getting rid of it entirely because I think it runs the risk of alienating players every time it is used, but I do appreciate you sharing your point of view.

The sad truth is that most people will not even know there is a rule change (if it changes) until in the coaching room. Also any rule changes will make someone mad (not a good reason not to change a rule by itself.)

There are good arguments to be made on both sides. First come first serve doesn’t seem fair, form/app has problems, roll offs can be exploited with a large enough group, telling people the need to buy out a run at gencon is impractical (but reasonable at other cons).

This isn’t easy, sometimes it’s pick your unfair system, and I think so long as you are no more than 5 minutes late, the current system is no worse than the alternatives, and does benefit some players.