TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

Yes*

* I believe the one uniform item people agreed on was that class selection should happen by the start time and once a coach starts recording no class changes are allowed for that class. If you don't make it by the start time you get what is left. This needs to be written in the rules and posted on the sign.

Let me summarize:

These rules (based off the 3rd level perk) should be documented and posted in the coaches room.

1. Class selection should happen by the start of the event (amended to clarified). Please discuss your desired class selection if you arrive early (to inform).
2. Any Lvl3+ can "pull rank" once of a Lvl1-2 for a class before the start of the event (current rules and amended).
3. If two Lvl3+ want the same class they roll off (current rules). Only one class challenge allowed per person and it must be before the start of the event (amending).
4. If a coach has started record stats for a class no class changes can occur for that class. (clarified)
5. If you arrive after the start of the event you select from the remaining classes in the order you arrive. (clarified)

Ed

Really? Are you saying that I have to spend more time creating 3-4 back up classes, buy more tokens, do MORE research to understand them when we seem to be saying we shouldn't require a newbie to do basic research of how the game played? I'm already making 4 characters for my friends, I guess I should just create all classes and bring all my tokens with me because we cant get people to log on to a website for some basic education and preplanning.

I donno, the more I engage here the more I think I'll start using the level 3 rule and just take my preferred class when I want. Im coming to the conclusion that if people dont spend any time or effort before hand to get prepared they should get the class that's left over and we shouldn't be worried about them. If I see they put in the effort, then I'd be all for helping that player out, otherwise, they can learn like the rest of us did and be driven to the forums after they get burned.

It wont set expectations appropriately and many people will get turned off by it, but hey I guess it's better than asking a new player to sign up for an account and read some basic rules.

travis wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Then I dont get the hp bump

there is a real easy solution to that problem...

I have a build for every class in my app. It doesn't take that much time.

Most PUG groups are going to play on normal, unless some vet loans them tokens. There is no need to stress builds at that level.

Otherwise, join in with a group where you can work thinks out beforehand and be sure of your class selection. I haven't run in a PUG for years.

Guedoji wrote: Really? Are you saying that I have to spend more time creating 3-4 back up classes, buy more tokens, do MORE research to understand them when we seem to be saying we shouldn't require a newbie to do basic research of how the game played?]

You are pro signing up on the forums. You could just join groups on the forums so you know your class. That is what you are asking people that have never played the game to do so uncertain why you would have difficulties doing it.

Harlax wrote: I have a build for every class in my app. It doesn't take that much time.

Most PUG groups are going to play on normal, unless some vet loans them tokens. There is no need to stress builds at that level.

I agree with this.

If you're in a PUG, you should expect normal.

If you're on normal, please dont whip out your NM-Epic+ build without toning it down several notches first.

Have fun and be an ambassador for the game.

There is literally no need to buy any tickets in advance if you're flexible about when you play. Just come to the forums, find a group LFM with your class still available, and go from there.

It's pretty stressful trying to coordinate a group of new/ semi-novice players in a pug and that's what I was hoping to solve by forum coordination.

Since I've started playing I've lost out on my preferred class, maybe 40% of my runs.

I've invested heavily in TD, outside of 3-5 runs a year, thousands of dollars is tokens to support the game, this would be unheard of for any other game, but I justify it by knowing the money is going to a better experience.

I've spent a ton of time researching my and other classes so I can help the other players I'm bringing in. I've spent a ton of time building characters.

Its extremely difficult to get groups of tickets for GENCON. Side note: asking someone to buy out a whole run to play the class they want is unacceptable, that puts more burden on the player to now coordinate what to do with the leftover tickets and then a risk of losing money. It's also far too expensive to ask this of people and its extremely difficult to coordinate if you want to do anything else at the convention.

So why do we keep falling back to a "vet" should take all the burden when we dont expect a new player to do anything but show up?

We already have a 10pack only run that can stay no exp needed. Maybe these dont allow class priority because they are ment for new players. Then make the other runs state that they recommend players coordinate on the forums as it may impact class selection.

Look, people that come prepared should be rewarded for it, both new and vets. This is the only way your going to save time as things get more complex. Anything we can do to work this out in advance will improve everyone's experience. It will give people a chance to know what they are getting into, and back out if they feel the group isnt for them.

Harlax wrote: I have a build for every class in my app. It doesn't take that much time.

Most PUG groups are going to play on normal, unless some vet loans them tokens. There is no need to stress builds at that level.

Otherwise, join in with a group where you can work thinks out beforehand and be sure of your class selection. I haven't run in a PUG for years.

If it was just me I would do that, but any given year I may have a mix of 3-5 people who ask me to coordinate and get them in a run. Some new, some casual.

jedibcg wrote:

Guedoji wrote: Really? Are you saying that I have to spend more time creating 3-4 back up classes, buy more tokens, do MORE research to understand them when we seem to be saying we shouldn't require a newbie to do basic research of how the game played?]

You are pro signing up on the forums. You could just join groups on the forums so you know your class. That is what you are asking people that have never played the game to do so uncertain why you would have difficulties doing it.

Because it's raising my comment count significantly

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote:

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Guedoji wrote: So why do we keep falling back to a "vet" should take all the burden when we dont expect a new player to do anything but show up?

Because we want the threshold to play to be as low as possible. $80 at GC is already a very high threshold.

Veterans benefit by building the game. More ticket sales, more conventions we get better and better content.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

MasterED wrote: I feel this was a good discussion but there is not a clearly better method then what we already have. Keep the rule (clarify it regarding roll offs - you get one challenge), post it (signs) so everyone is educated about it.

I disagree. Here is the current method: a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to say 23min after the start time and take any class from a Lv2- player. Likewise, a Lv3+ player can arrive any time up to 23min after the start time and force a roll-off between them any any other Lv3+ player.

Are you saying not a single proposal in here is better than that?

Yes*

* I believe the one uniform item people agreed on was that class selection should happen by the start time and once a coach starts recording no class changes are allowed for that class. If you don't make it by the start time you get what is left. This needs to be written in the rules and posted on the sign.

Let me summarize:

These rules (based off the 3rd level perk) should be documented and posted in the coaches room.

1. Class selection should happen by the start of the event (amended to clarified). Please discuss your desired class selection if you arrive early (to inform).
2. Any Lvl3+ can "pull rank" once of a Lvl1-2 for a class before the start of the event (current rules and amended).
3. If two Lvl3+ want the same class they roll off (current rules). Only one class challenge allowed per person and it must be before the start of the event (amending).
4. If a coach has started record stats for a class no class changes can occur for that class. (clarified)
5. If you arrive after the start of the event you select from the remaining classes in the order you arrive. (clarified)

Ed

I'll admit I'm confused. Earlier you said there is "there is not a clearly better method then what we already have." but then you explain something different than what we already have. The current rule puts no limit on arrival time, except presumably when you leave the coaching room and enter the training room. But your proposed sign is quite significantly better than the current method since it specifies a cut-off for class selection.

Kirk Bauer wrote: I'll admit I'm confused. Earlier you said there is "there is not a clearly better method then what we already have." but then you explain something different than what we already have. The current rule puts no limit on arrival time, except presumably when you leave the coaching room and enter the training room. But your proposed sign is quite significantly better than the current method since it specifies a cut-off for class selection.

That is ok - we will straighten you out

Keep the same perk (with clarification). Nothing I mentioned in text wasn't talked about it is just clarifying the intent of the perk and trying to minimize problems of someone coming in to the coaching room 2 minutes before training and demanding a class.

Clearly that is bad, it isn't against the rules technically, but it surely is against the spirit of the rule/game - just clarifying it AND asking it to be posted so every one is aware of the "field they are playing on".

Ed