TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

Harlax wrote: I’m still concerned about anything that takes away from players laying out their builds prior to the official start time. (Cue the people who say it’s no big deal)

But as a trainer this year I saw a lot of very experienced and competent coaches struggle to complete party cards within 24 minutes.

I'm not going to say it's no big deal, but AFAICT Kirk's proposal is strictly an improvement over status quo in this respect.

It is still possible to lay out builds early, just as people do today, and in most cases it will not be wasted effort. But in the "problem" cases,

Today a latecomer may arrive at ?? (cutoff unclear), demand a roll-off, and end up interfering with builds already laid out.

Under Kirk's proposal the above could still happen *before/at* the official start time, but can unequivocally no longer happen after the start time.

(Of course it also makes things fairer by removing player level 3 from the equation, but that part doesn't affect timing)

Guedoji wrote: One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.

As someone who did 14 runs at GC this year, I feel like some clarification of crazy numbers like that might be useful. Because the number is real, but can be pretty misleading. First, one of those 14 was the Golden Ticket, so only 13 were actually available to the general public. Of those, only 3 were runs that I actually coordinated (1 of each Dungeon), and even then someone else actually bought the tickets for those. The other 10 runs were with groups on the forum that had bought out a full run and wound up having an opening (and some of those were openings that appeared in the week or two before GenCon).

So, other than the one set of runs I coordinate, the actual impact of me running multiple times had little impact on your ability to buy tickets. I'd suspect almost no one is actually buying 15 runs directly through the GenCon site. So first, how do you determine those people's actual impact on ticket availability? And if this was determined to be an actual problem, what would you put in place to prevent it? For several of those runs, the ticket wasn't transferred to me in advance, so the system couldn't even have blocked it until I scanned in with the ticket owner right before the run.

Guedoji wrote: The rules should state clearly and it should be stated on the event description at time of ticketing that all players are recommended to log in to the forum, work with others to coordinate their desired classes.

Then...

Players who coordinated get first pick (assuming they agreed). This would possibly give folks a chance to change runs if the group doesn't work out.

If it was not worked out between players on the forum...

Player who has class prebuilt with app gets first pick. (We should be promoting players for helping to save time).

This all assumes that player are on time.

If all else fails, roll off.

Worrying about being able to play my class has been a huge stresser for me. I mentioned previously that I haven't invoked the rule of 3, typically because my mom taught me to be kind and to share my toys... however... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.

I think giving first picks to people that used the App or that coordinated on the forums are both problematic, as they favor veterans over new players.

I personally have no problem with people doing as many runs as they want to and can sign up for. Tickets are available equally to everyone in the registration process. I'd burn out after 5 or 6 runs, but if someone gets enjoyment by doing runs around the clock, more power to them.

David Zych wrote:

Harlax wrote: I’m still concerned about anything that takes away from players laying out their builds prior to the official start time. (Cue the people who say it’s no big deal)

But as a trainer this year I saw a lot of very experienced and competent coaches struggle to complete party cards within 24 minutes.

I'm not going to say it's no big deal, but AFAICT Kirk's proposal is strictly an improvement over status quo in this respect.

It is still possible to lay out builds early, just as people do today, and in most cases it will not be wasted effort. But in the "problem" cases,

Today a latecomer may arrive at ?? (cutoff unclear), demand a roll-off, and end up interfering with builds already laid out.

Under Kirk's proposal the above could still happen *before/at* the official start time, but can unequivocally no longer happen after the start time.

(Of course it also makes things fairer by removing player level 3 from the equation, but that part doesn't affect timing)

I’m not defending the 3rd level perk. I’m fine with removing it. I’m fine with anyone who arrives late being stuck with whatever is left.

Guedoji wrote: ... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

Spending a ton of money on tokens is one reason people do a lot of runs. They tool want to play with their toys as much as they can. I say this as someone that onely ran 6 dungeons and a grind. If I wanted more they were available but that was plenty for me this year. At GHC I am running 3 side quests and both e’s once. There still tickets available if I or anyone else wants more. As long as re-runners are not ruining the dungeon for anyone else I have no issues with someone running as much as they like today since I have the same chances to those tickets.

Fiddy wrote:

Guedoji wrote: One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?
I'd suspect almost no one is actually buying 15 runs directly through the GenCon site. So first, how do you determine those people's actual impact on ticket availability?

Actually I had 19 runs on my account and three other people had 6 more through the GENCON site. We kept all my runs and I dropped 4 of the runs, because we actually wanted to go eat. So, yes, it is possible to get 15 runs on one account. Last year we had 12 runs on one account.

Cheers,
Ed

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote: The rules should state clearly and it should be stated on the event description at time of ticketing that all players are recommended to log in to the forum, work with others to coordinate their desired classes.

Then...

Players who coordinated get first pick (assuming they agreed). This would possibly give folks a chance to change runs if the group doesn't work out.

If it was not worked out between players on the forum...

Player who has class prebuilt with app gets first pick. (We should be promoting players for helping to save time).

This all assumes that player are on time.

If all else fails, roll off.

Worrying about being able to play my class has been a huge stresser for me. I mentioned previously that I haven't invoked the rule of 3, typically because my mom taught me to be kind and to share my toys... however... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.

I think giving first picks to people that used the App or that coordinated on the forums are both problematic, as they favor veterans over new players.

I have a hard time seeing how having people use an App or join the forums is problematic. Tickets go on sale months before the event which is plenty of time to make arrangements. Not reading the email or an unwillingness to create an account is squarely on the participant and shouldn't penalize those who have made an effort to do so.

Brokkr wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote: The rules should state clearly and it should be stated on the event description at time of ticketing that all players are recommended to log in to the forum, work with others to coordinate their desired classes.

Then...

Players who coordinated get first pick (assuming they agreed). This would possibly give folks a chance to change runs if the group doesn't work out.

If it was not worked out between players on the forum...

Player who has class prebuilt with app gets first pick. (We should be promoting players for helping to save time).

This all assumes that player are on time.

If all else fails, roll off.

Worrying about being able to play my class has been a huge stresser for me. I mentioned previously that I haven't invoked the rule of 3, typically because my mom taught me to be kind and to share my toys... however... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.

I think giving first picks to people that used the App or that coordinated on the forums are both problematic, as they favor veterans over new players.

I have a hard time seeing how having people use an App or join the forums is problematic. Tickets go on sale months before the event which is plenty of time to make arrangements. Not reading the email or an unwillingness to create an account is squarely on the participant and shouldn't penalize those who have made an effort to do so.

Having people use the apps or join the forums isn't problematic, I think both are great. I'm also not saying people who do either or both should be penalized, I'm just saying I don't think that using an app or the forums should give them first pick of character classes. People who have pregenerated character sheets are rewarded with a bonus HP or two.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brokkr wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote: The rules should state clearly and it should be stated on the event description at time of ticketing that all players are recommended to log in to the forum, work with others to coordinate their desired classes.

Then...

Players who coordinated get first pick (assuming they agreed). This would possibly give folks a chance to change runs if the group doesn't work out.

If it was not worked out between players on the forum...

Player who has class prebuilt with app gets first pick. (We should be promoting players for helping to save time).

This all assumes that player are on time.

If all else fails, roll off.

Worrying about being able to play my class has been a huge stresser for me. I mentioned previously that I haven't invoked the rule of 3, typically because my mom taught me to be kind and to share my toys... however... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.

I think giving first picks to people that used the App or that coordinated on the forums are both problematic, as they favor veterans over new players.

I have a hard time seeing how having people use an App or join the forums is problematic. Tickets go on sale months before the event which is plenty of time to make arrangements. Not reading the email or an unwillingness to create an account is squarely on the participant and shouldn't penalize those who have made an effort to do so.

Having people use the apps or join the forums isn't problematic, I think both are great. I'm also not saying people who do either or both should be penalized, I'm just saying I don't think that using an app or the forums should give them first pick of character classes. People who have pregenerated character sheets are rewarded with a bonus HP or two.

Wait there is an app?? What have I been missing out on!

Cheers,
Ed

Kaledor wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Guedoji wrote: One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?
I'd suspect almost no one is actually buying 15 runs directly through the GenCon site. So first, how do you determine those people's actual impact on ticket availability?

Actually I had 19 runs on my account and three other people had 6 more through the GENCON site. We kept all my runs and I dropped 4 of the runs, because we actually wanted to go eat. So, yes, it is possible to get 15 runs on one account. Last year we had 12 runs on one account.

Cheers,
Ed

I did say "almost no one", not "no one".

Mike Steele wrote:

Brokkr wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote: The rules should state clearly and it should be stated on the event description at time of ticketing that all players are recommended to log in to the forum, work with others to coordinate their desired classes.

Then...

Players who coordinated get first pick (assuming they agreed). This would possibly give folks a chance to change runs if the group doesn't work out.

If it was not worked out between players on the forum...

Player who has class prebuilt with app gets first pick. (We should be promoting players for helping to save time).

This all assumes that player are on time.

If all else fails, roll off.

Worrying about being able to play my class has been a huge stresser for me. I mentioned previously that I haven't invoked the rule of 3, typically because my mom taught me to be kind and to share my toys... however... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.

I think giving first picks to people that used the App or that coordinated on the forums are both problematic, as they favor veterans over new players.

I have a hard time seeing how having people use an App or join the forums is problematic. Tickets go on sale months before the event which is plenty of time to make arrangements. Not reading the email or an unwillingness to create an account is squarely on the participant and shouldn't penalize those who have made an effort to do so.

Having people use the apps or join the forums isn't problematic, I think both are great. I'm also not saying people who do either or both should be penalized, I'm just saying I don't think that using an app or the forums should give them first pick of character classes. People who have pregenerated character sheets are rewarded with a bonus HP or two.

People using the forums all cooperated (teamwork as many suggested should be in place for TD) they should get first pick.

It would not be difficult for TD to put this in the email or on the event description and people really would have no room to complain if they didnt read.

Why would we not want to continue to reward folks with pre generated characters. Many have stated the difficulty and time consuming nature of recording more complexities, this seems like a logical next step.

As for the huge amount of runs, and I'm not picking on anyone, I understand wanting to run so much... I suspect that more damage is being done due to disappointment of not getting to play with friends is far worse than not getting to pick a class. Its really tough to get 4-5 tickets together... I know personally people who wont play because of the stress of coordinating. Two first time players who said it was too much work, and one three year player who quit. I myself have been on the fence a few times, but i continue because I love it. That said when I show up to a run, had a prebuilt character, attempted to coordinate on the forums and cant play my class... it's not a great experience.

Guedoji wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Brokkr wrote:

Mike Steele wrote:

Guedoji wrote: The rules should state clearly and it should be stated on the event description at time of ticketing that all players are recommended to log in to the forum, work with others to coordinate their desired classes.

Then...

Players who coordinated get first pick (assuming they agreed). This would possibly give folks a chance to change runs if the group doesn't work out.

If it was not worked out between players on the forum...

Player who has class prebuilt with app gets first pick. (We should be promoting players for helping to save time).

This all assumes that player are on time.

If all else fails, roll off.

Worrying about being able to play my class has been a huge stresser for me. I mentioned previously that I haven't invoked the rule of 3, typically because my mom taught me to be kind and to share my toys... however... I drop a ton of money into TD and I would like a way to be sure I can use my tokens as many of them simply cant be used if I run another class. It makes me hesitate to buy more when I worry about this.

One other stress triggering moment in this thread. It was mentioned that some vets are running 15 runs? Maybe that was an exaggeration, but why are folks able to re-run a dungeon more than once or twice?

It is extremely difficult to coordinate the three runs for myself, my wife and a friend or two and this is likely a much bigger issue for new players. If they cant even get tickets how can we expect to grow the community. I'm often trying to bring new players to TD, but I've had plenty of times where I had to turn potential new players away because I simply cant coordinate more tickets. It's a little bothersome that folks are running that many runs when I'm telling friends I wasnt able to get them into 1 run with me.

I think giving first picks to people that used the App or that coordinated on the forums are both problematic, as they favor veterans over new players.

I have a hard time seeing how having people use an App or join the forums is problematic. Tickets go on sale months before the event which is plenty of time to make arrangements. Not reading the email or an unwillingness to create an account is squarely on the participant and shouldn't penalize those who have made an effort to do so.

Having people use the apps or join the forums isn't problematic, I think both are great. I'm also not saying people who do either or both should be penalized, I'm just saying I don't think that using an app or the forums should give them first pick of character classes. People who have pregenerated character sheets are rewarded with a bonus HP or two.

People using the forums all cooperated (teamwork as many suggested should be in place for TD) they should get first pick.

It would not be difficult for TD to put this in the email or on the event description and people really would have no room to complain if they didnt read.

Why would we not want to continue to reward folks with pre generated characters. Many have stated the difficulty and time consuming nature of recording more complexities, this seems like a logical next step.

As for the huge amount of runs, and I'm not picking on anyone, I understand wanting to run so much... I suspect that more damage is being done due to disappointment of not getting to play with friends is far worse than not getting to pick a class. Its really tough to get 4-5 tickets together... I know personally people who wont play because of the stress of coordinating. Two first time players who said it was too much work, and one three year player who quit. I myself have been on the fence a few times, but i continue because I love it. That said when I show up to a run, had a prebuilt character, attempted to coordinate on the forums and cant play my class... it's not a great experience.

My group had a bad year for getting the full runs we wanted. (In fairness we did very well the prior year) But I was able to get the runs in. I searched on the forums using Andrews outstanding tracking thread and found two runs at the difficulty level I wanted for my son and I. Better than doing a PUG and hoping for the best.