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TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #229

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David Zych wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: The more I read on this topic the more I feel we should just leave everything as is, for all its flaws it’s at least already in place.


Should the 3rd level player bonus be eliminated?
A. Yes!
B. Yes, and I have other ideas for how to further improve the process.
C. No, it's a good thing that 3rd+ level players can bump 1st-2nd level players and we should keep that.

I've seen a lot of good debate between A and many variations of B. The lack of clear consensus so far regarding a particular variation of B doesn't mean we should give up and pick C.

no it doesn’t but i haven’t seen anything better imo.
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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #230

David Zych wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: The more I read on this topic the more I feel we should just leave everything as is, for all its flaws it’s at least already in place.


Should the 3rd level player bonus be eliminated?
A. Yes!
B. Yes, and I have other ideas for how to further improve the process.
C. No, it's a good thing that 3rd+ level players can bump 1st-2nd level players and we should keep that.

I've seen a lot of good debate between A and many variations of B. The lack of clear consensus so far regarding a particular variation of B doesn't mean we should give up and pick C.


D. There is no process that doesn’t have potentially worse consequences.

So stay with status quo rather than break things worse than they currently are. I have no good idea that do better than the current situation. We are relying on people to not be jerks, but we will never eliminate jerks from the game completely.

One problem with these discussions is I feel often we straw man a argument assuming the worst intent. Most of us have good intentions.

I don’t like first person to the room gets the class, I see problems with that.
Buying full blocks isn’t practical at gencon but is at basically all other cons because of supply and ticketing systems.

I do think if someone is truly late they should lose priority (5 minutes late seems like a fair cut off).

The current rules probably are as good as we will get.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #231

Just leave things the way they are.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #232

Dave wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: The more I read on this topic the more I feel we should just leave everything as is, for all its flaws it’s at least already in place.


The more I read, the more I'm in this camp (just add a poster explaining the current rule)


There seems to be two discussions. (1) should 3rd+ players be able to take a class from a newer player. And (2) when there is class conflict, how should it be resolved.

I think (1) is a clear thing to change. Perhaps you haven't seen it, but it has affected newer players in a negative way, and will continue to do so.

For (2) I'm fine keeping roll-it-off as an option. If the 3rd-level rule is eliminated then this will just apply to all conflicts.
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Last edit: by Kirk Bauer.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #233

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Dave wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: The more I read on this topic the more I feel we should just leave everything as is, for all its flaws it’s at least already in place.


The more I read, the more I'm in this camp (just add a poster explaining the current rule)


There seems to be two discussions. (1) should 3rd+ players be able to take a class from a newer player. And (2) when there is class conflict, how should it be resolved.

I think (1) is a clear thing to change. Perhaps you haven't seen it, but it has affected newer players in a negative way, and will continue to do so.

For (2) I'm fine keeping roll-it-off as an option. If the 3rd-level rule is eliminated then this will just apply to all conflicts.


+1 (this is what I tried to say just now but I didn't say it nearly as well)

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #234

David Zych wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Dave wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: The more I read on this topic the more I feel we should just leave everything as is, for all its flaws it’s at least already in place.


The more I read, the more I'm in this camp (just add a poster explaining the current rule)


There seems to be two discussions. (1) should 3rd+ players be able to take a class from a newer player. And (2) when there is class conflict, how should it be resolved.

I think (1) is a clear thing to change. Perhaps you haven't seen it, but it has affected newer players in a negative way, and will continue to do so.

For (2) I'm fine keeping roll-it-off as an option. If the 3rd-level rule is eliminated then this will just apply to all conflicts.


+1 (this is what I tried to say just now but I didn't say it nearly as well)


+2.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #235

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Kirk Bauer wrote: I think (1) is a clear thing to change. Perhaps you haven't seen it, but it has affected newer players in a negative way, and will continue to do so.

I don’t think anyone is doubting that it CAN affect new players negatively. But by your own stories you have 1 second hand account of it happening and one second hand account of we don’t know what happened. Attempting to change rules that could also have negative effects on players. This seems a bit of an over reaction to me. We have a number of coaches saying how rarely there is a negative outcome of this interaction. How much of that negative would be reduced if everyone knew and understood the rules at time of choosing?
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Last edit: by jedibcg.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #236

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I think (1) is a clear thing to change. Perhaps you haven't seen it, but it has affected newer players in a negative way, and will continue to do so.

I don’t think anyone is doubting that it CAN affect new players negatively. But by your own stories you have 1 second hand account of it happening and one second hand account of we don’t know what happened. Attempting to change rules that could also have negative effects on players. This seems a bit of an over reaction to me. We have a number of coaches saying how rarely there is a negative outcome of this interaction. How much of that negative would be reduced if everyone knew and understood the rules at time of choosing?


First of all, if the 3rd Level benefit is kept as is, does it require the player to be on time? Or perhaps a better question: how late can a 3rd-level player arrive and still take their preferred class from a lower-leveled player? I don't believe we understand the current rule fully.

Secondly, we have had a surprising number of people who have actually seen this happen, right here in this thread. Considering this is one forum post being viewed almost exclusively by veteran players, I'm surprised/worried how much it has happened.

Thirdly, we'll never know how many new players have been run off by this rule, since by definition they didn't stick around long enough to be participating on these forums.

Here are the posts showing that this can and does cause challenges.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=180#351734

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=36#351026

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=72#351307

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=84#351412

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=96#351495

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=24#350987
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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #237

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Dave wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: The more I read on this topic the more I feel we should just leave everything as is, for all its flaws it’s at least already in place.


The more I read, the more I'm in this camp (just add a poster explaining the current rule)


There seems to be two discussions. (1) should 3rd+ players be able to take a class from a newer player. And (2) when there is class conflict, how should it be resolved.

I think (1) is a clear thing to change. Perhaps you haven't seen it, but it has affected newer players in a negative way, and will continue to do so.

For (2) I'm fine keeping roll-it-off as an option. If the 3rd-level rule is eliminated then this will just apply to all conflicts.


So when it comes to well equipped vets I think we should be flexible.
But the players I have met that were very stuck on there class were the hardcore red build players (usually second year players). Often they see there investment as large and want to play there class the 2 or 3 runs they do each year. I think this is the group that this kind of change negatively effects.
The truth is if I felt like the change had no drawbacks I would be in favor.
As a vet I personally will not push new players out of classes. I think any players that have done a dungeon more than once should give new players the option of class for the most part (once it’s on the party card it’s too late).

I do want to say Kirk that I respect your position, you are recommending this for good reasons and I do respect that. I think the main problem might be Jerks instead of the rule. The same kind of people you wrote of would make everyone role against there group until either they get there way or a lot of time and good Will is waisted.

I very respectfully disagree with this proposal.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #238

My understanding is, that if you have one complaint reported to you, that usually means there's ten more that have the same problem, but didn't report it.

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It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #239

Kirk Bauer wrote:

jedibcg wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote: I think (1) is a clear thing to change. Perhaps you haven't seen it, but it has affected newer players in a negative way, and will continue to do so.

I don’t think anyone is doubting that it CAN affect new players negatively. But by your own stories you have 1 second hand account of it happening and one second hand account of we don’t know what happened. Attempting to change rules that could also have negative effects on players. This seems a bit of an over reaction to me. We have a number of coaches saying how rarely there is a negative outcome of this interaction. How much of that negative would be reduced if everyone knew and understood the rules at time of choosing?


First of all, if the 3rd Level benefit is kept as is, does it require the player to be on time? Or perhaps a better question: how late can a 3rd-level player arrive and still take their preferred class from a lower-leveled player? I don't believe we understand the current rule fully.

Secondly, we have had a surprising number of people who have actually seen this happen, right here in this thread. Considering this is one forum post being viewed almost exclusively by veteran players, I'm surprised/worried how much it has happened.

Thirdly, we'll never know how many new players have been run off by this rule, since by definition they didn't stick around long enough to be participating on these forums.

Here are the posts showing that this can and does cause challenges.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=180#351734

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=36#351026

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=72#351307

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=84#351412

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=96#351495

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&defaultmenu=141&catid=585&id=250256&start=24#350987


Since I’m quoted here, I’ll note that in 6 years of coaching (and 10 years of playing) that I estimated only needing one hand to count the number of times I’ve seen it.

But I do agree that the 3rd level rule is problematic/abused/misunderstood.
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Last edit: by Harlax.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 5 days ago #240


One problem with these discussions is I feel often we straw man a argument assuming the worst intent.

I do think if someone is truly late they should lose priority (5 minutes late seems like a fair cut off).

The current rules probably are as good as we will get.


In the end I feel this is where I am at.

I feel if we are not able to come to a consensus that is truly better for all parties within a reasonable amount of time we should keep the benefit as is.

One thing I have seen is a consensus of imposing a time limit. Players who are late and slow down the game lose their Benefit for the run.

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Last edit: by Justice.
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