Welcome, Guest
Username: Password: Remember me

TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #181

Fiddy wrote: Not a huge fan of alphabetical order. I'd suggest going with whatever classes are most-contended on the run first. With the suggested rules, what happens in the odd case that all ten people would like to play Wizard? 9 lose the roll-off. What happens then?

See point 1 about discussing first before the 5 minutes but in the unlikely event that all 10 strangers arrive exactly 5 minutes before and are forced to follow the process. The roll off scores could pick the remaining classes.

Ed

Note edited text to clarify picking classes before 5m in the original post.
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
Amorgen's Excel Char Gen Tool
Token DataBase
Talking TD Podcast

TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #182

Rob F wrote:

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).

Class Selection Rules need to be posted on a sign in coaching room.
Class Selection Rules need to be a new card that is on top of the character cards.
The Character cards are delivered to the room near 5 minutes before the start time of the ticket.

The sign/card reads something to the following:

Class Selection Process
Please discuss among yourself and follow this selection process.

  1. Class selection process begins 5 minutes prior to the ticketed time. This is to ensure classes are selected by the ticketed time.
  2. Please start with the classes in alphabetic order (Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard).
  3. Ask if anyone wants the first class. If only one person would like it they then get to play that class. In the event more than one person wants the class roll off. Only ties continue to roll off.
  4. Proceed to the next class.
  5. If you lose a roll off you may not go back and attempt to roll off a previous class.
  6. Continue until you are through all 12 classes or everyone in the room has selected a class.
  7. Any ticketed adventure arriving after the class selection process has started can participate in the selection of the remaining classes.
  8. If the class selection process has been completed but there are still missing players they get to select from the remaining classes in the order they arrive in the room.

There will be no 3rd player level pulling rank
There is no going back and saying I lost the roll of for Wizard I now want Bard. If you wanted Bard you should have rolled off for it originally.

If all 10 players have selected classes and the coach has not recorded those two players stats and if they mutually agree then they can switch classes (probably not needed to document but just calling it out for clarity).

Ed


Yes, the rules should be posted in the coaching room. I like the idea of a sign and a card on top of the character cards.


You know I'm +1 on the rules being posted in the room for all to see and referred to. You can't argue with a posted sign. (And if you do, then you've got bigger problems than someone taking your preferred character class.)

Perhaps this extra rules card on top of the character cards can be laminated so it is reused. (Save a tree, save the world.)

Other than that, the rules seem solid but to Fiddy's point, perhaps there is a caveat about more than two players wanting the same character rolling off against eachother one time with the highest number getting the card and the others relegated to "after everyone else chooses classes."

Honestly, from all the anecdotal evidence presented by coaches, these two steps seem more than enough to prevent an already infrequent conflict escalation.
Get your Character Class T-Shirts HERE! https://www.redbubble.com/people/snakeeyes0217/collections/723278-dungeon-adventure-wear

Get $10 off your first order from Trent Tokens with this code! http://i.refs.cc/RsPEAVgF

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #183

SnakeEyes (Eric) wrote: Honestly, from all the anecdotal evidence presented by coaches, these two steps seem more than enough to prevent an already infrequent conflict escalation.

I agree. I am fine with just adding the sign and laminated card with the existing rules. Let's see how it plays out and if we really need to change them.

Ed
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
Amorgen's Excel Char Gen Tool
Token DataBase
Talking TD Podcast

TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #184

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).

Class Selection Rules need to be posted on a sign in coaching room.
Class Selection Rules need to be a new card that is on top of the character cards.
The Character cards are delivered to the room near 5 minutes before the start time of the ticket.

The sign/card reads something to the following:

Class Selection Process
Please discuss among yourself and try to pick classes in a friendly and civil manner. If that fails follow this selection process when the coach brings your party cards (5 minutes before the event).

  1. Class selection process begins 5 minutes prior to the ticketed time. This is to ensure classes are selected by the ticketed time.
  2. Please start with the classes in alphabetic order (Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard).
  3. Ask if anyone wants the first class. If only one person would like it they then get to play that class. In the event more than one person wants the class roll off. Only ties continue to roll off.
  4. Proceed to the next class.
  5. If you lose a roll off you may not go back and attempt to roll off a previous class.
  6. Continue until you are through all 12 classes or everyone in the room has selected a class.
  7. Any ticketed adventure arriving after the class selection process has started can participate in the selection of the remaining classes.
  8. If the class selection process has been completed but there are still missing players they get to select from the remaining classes in the order they arrive in the room.

There will be no 3rd player level pulling rank
There is no going back and saying I lost the roll of for Wizard I now want Bard. If you wanted Bard you should have rolled off for it originally.

If all 10 players have selected classes and the coach has not recorded those two players stats and if they mutually agree then they can switch classes (probably not needed to document but just calling it out for clarity).

Ed


This procedure is incomplete - it can be fixed - but it doesn’t say how to resolve all possible (or even likely) outcomes.

Examples:


1. 3 people want to play rogue, and 1 wants to play wizard - when it gets to rogue the three roll off.

Now what happens?

There are 3 players without classes, and only one class left to call. There are several ways this could be resolved but the procedure above doesn’t specify one.

2. As you’re coming up with a procedure for #1, consider the alternate case - no one wants to play Barbarian, but 2 people want to play Bard. What happens to the person who loses the roll?


3. More pathological example: all 10 players want to play wizard. So after the roll off we have 1 wizard and 9 unassigned players. How do we decide the order the 9 other players pick from what is left?

4. What if someone has a RoSP voucher?

I think it’s a mistake to be too legalistic - as people will not agree on the interpretation of these rules, there will be errors in adjudication, there will be hard feelings when two different interpretations of a detailed set of rules come into conflict.

Much simpler rules would have the same effects without the drawbacks:

1. Class selection begins when the cards arrice ~5 minutes before ticketed time.

2. Work with your party to determine who played which class. If any players can’t agree, after everyone else has selected those players roll off. The winners keep the contested class, the losers pick from what remains.

3. Players must play the class selected.

4. If any player is not present when class selection begins, they must pick from the remaining classes.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Matthew Hayward.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #185

Fiddy wrote:

Rob F wrote:

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).

Class Selection Rules need to be posted on a sign in coaching room.
Class Selection Rules need to be a new card that is on top of the character cards.
The Character cards are delivered to the room near 5 minutes before the start time of the ticket.

The sign/card reads something to the following:

Class Selection Process
Please discuss among yourself and follow this selection process.

  1. Class selection process begins 5 minutes prior to the ticketed time. This is to ensure classes are selected by the ticketed time.
  2. Please start with the classes in alphabetic order (Bard, Barbarian, Cleric, Druid, Dwarf Fighter, Elf Wizard, Fighter, Monk, Paladin, Ranger, Rogue, Wizard).
  3. Ask if anyone wants the first class. If only one person would like it they then get to play that class. In the event more than one person wants the class roll off. Only ties continue to roll off.
  4. Proceed to the next class.
  5. If you lose a roll off you may not go back and attempt to roll off a previous class.
  6. Continue until you are through all 12 classes or everyone in the room has selected a class.
  7. Any ticketed adventure arriving after the class selection process has started can participate in the selection of the remaining classes.
  8. If the class selection process has been completed but there are still missing players they get to select from the remaining classes in the order they arrive in the room.

There will be no 3rd player level pulling rank
There is no going back and saying I lost the roll of for Wizard I now want Bard. If you wanted Bard you should have rolled off for it originally.

If all 10 players have selected classes and the coach has not recorded those two players stats and if they mutually agree then they can switch classes (probably not needed to document but just calling it out for clarity).

Ed


Yes, the rules should be posted in the coaching room. I like the idea of a sign and a card on top of the character cards.


Having the rules posted and potentially an extra card on top of the pile of characters I can definitely agree with.

Not a huge fan of alphabetical order. I'd suggest going with whatever classes are most-contended on the run first. With the suggested rules, what happens in the odd case that all ten people would like to play Wizard? 9 lose the roll-off. What happens then?


Having something posted or on the tables are on top of the cards believe me as a coach none of that stuff is going to get read newer people get in there And all they can think about is getting your tokens on the mat. At Gen Con there was a sheet on the table describing things that was laminated and I can tell you I never saw anyone pick it up. They are completely focused on getting their gear on their mats are trading around or choosing the classes but not on any signage or list of things to do.
Please visit my fledgling token store.
truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=583&id=247486

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #186

Bob Chasan wrote: As a coach, I can say it happens very rarely. You all know I coach quite a bit. In all my time I can only recall one time when players couldn’t work it out amicably, rolled off, and the losing player was visibly upset. I have seen only a very few couple of times a roll off was necessary and not within the last couple of years.


This is my 6th year coaching. (I know others have done it far longer) I can probably count on one hand the number of times this has been a problem that could not be worked out by discussion.

Starting the process 5 minutes before official start time removes most of my concerns.

So, :evil: does this process apply to GT runs. That forum process is very much first come, first served. :P


To any card we post I'd like verbiage encouraging people to work it out like adults and to consider the good of the party in decision making.
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Harlax.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #187

what if aliens abduct half the party and then Bigfoot and Loch Ness monster all show up at the same time
delpchad.blogspot.com/

First solo Nightmare survivor-2014 Viper pit

Allergic to Lori

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #188

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).


I don't like the alphabetical thing either.

At this point, why don't the players just get a random number #1-#10 at check-in and then that indicates the order they get to select? Saves the hassle of die-rolling.

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #189

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: what if aliens abduct half the party and then Bigfoot and Loch Ness monster all show up at the same time

LOL

I think you are saying the same - keep it the same but post the rules (this way the people that do read and the coaches that don't know the rules) so everyone can be informed.

Ed
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
Amorgen's Excel Char Gen Tool
Token DataBase
Talking TD Podcast

TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #190

Incognito wrote:

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).


I don't like the alphabetical thing either.

At this point, why don't the players just get a random number #1-#10 at check-in and then that indicates the order they get to select? Saves the hassle of die-rolling.

I am fine with it this approach as long as it is posted in the coaches room so people can be informed. Clearly, if people want to trade after they picked their class by order and the coach hasn't started the their party card numbers they could trade if they both agreed.

How would suggest implementing this so more than 1 person doesn't get the same number and keep it a very low burden on admin?

Ed
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
Amorgen's Excel Char Gen Tool
Token DataBase
Talking TD Podcast

TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by MasterED.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #191

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: what if aliens abduct half the party and then Bigfoot and Loch Ness monster all show up at the same time


Well, Bigfoot clearly gets the new Bigfoot subclass. Are you going to argue with Bigfoot? ;)
D&D teaches all the important lessons in life - the low blow, the cheap shot, the back stab, the double cross. - Jerry Marsischky

Let them trap us. We have our swords. - Elric of Melnibone.

You try to get them to play the game, but all they want to do is play the rules. - Ardak Kumerian

I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend - Faramir

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Last edit: by Harlax.

It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus 1 month 1 week ago #192

MasterED wrote:

Incognito wrote:

MasterED wrote: So working with Lazlo's suggestion (which I also proposed) - just move the selection time to 5 minutes before the start time so that classes are selected by the people who are on time first. No going back for class selections - you lose your roll off you will have to pick a later class or what is left if it is the last class (Wizard).


I don't like the alphabetical thing either.

At this point, why don't the players just get a random number #1-#10 at check-in and then that indicates the order they get to select? Saves the hassle of die-rolling.

I am fine with it this approach as long as it is posted in the coaches room so people can be informed. Clearly, if people want to trade after they picked their class by order and the coach hasn't started the their party card numbers they could trade if they both agreed.

How would suggest implementing this so more than 1 person doesn't get the same number and keep it a very low burden on admin?

Ed

so add another expense because people cant work things out?
i think the number idea is horrible.
i have never had a party all wanting the same class. worst case I had 2 people wanted rogue and 2 wanted bard
they worked it out
delpchad.blogspot.com/

First solo Nightmare survivor-2014 Viper pit

Allergic to Lori

Please Log in or Create an account to join the conversation.

Time to create page: 0.217 seconds