TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

As to the discussion on 3rd level player bonus:

1. First off, simply eliminating the bonus and not replacing the system with a clearer method of class selection will just make the problem worse.

2. I am not convinced by all the "I don't use it therefore I'm fine with it going away." That's like me saying "I don't use bag check so I'm fine with it going away." Or the many people who could say "I never go on a Golden Ticket so I think it should go away." Of course if you don't use it, there is no downside to you if it goes away.

3. This problem has gotten worse over time because of massive power creep in tokens. People shelling out thousands of dollars on class-specific tokens which are ridiculously overpowered. And so many slots being introduced resulting in too many tokens for a single class build. If players don't know what class they are building, do you really expect them to bring full builds for each of the 10 distinct classes? Amusing, because this ties into the bag check issue when you're lugging around that many tokens.

4. Realistically, if we remove the 3rd level player bonus, I don't actually expect anything to replace it. Remember back when 2nd level granted you Tavern access (and technically special event access which has never been able to be enforced)? Well the Tavern has been gone for a decade and they still haven't replaced it, even though every few years someone suggests a new benefit instead.

5. As a tongue in cheek answer, how about this new, BETTER system of class selection: Class Selection Priority goes based on the total number of conventions you have volunteered for as a TD volunteer (2x multiplier for full time). Whoever has volunteered the most gets first pick!

Incognito wrote: If players don't know what class they are building, do you really expect them to bring full builds for each of the 10 distinct classes? Amusing, because this ties into the bag check issue when you're lugging around that many tokens.

I do that. It is less than 150 tokens (there's a ton of overlap between the classes) which is 10 binder pages and fits in 1 binder. That includes 36 permanent slotless tokens that do something. So it's not as bad to carry though as you might think.

I get your point though that most players specialize and aren't going to do that.

I don't bring 10 characters worth of tokens, but I am bringing about 5 characters worth.

The problem with getting bumped by a late arriving vet (happened to me once) is not only getting bumped out of your preferred choice, but likely getting stuck with the left overs. When I got bumped, the coach had me choose from the left overs, not any other character I wanted.

Generally its first come first served - stick with what people do naturally?

My primary build can go Fighter, Dwarf Fighter, And Paladin without any changes. Barbarian with one change. My Druid build can go Cleric with one very minor deletion. And I have a decent, but not great MEC Wizard/Elf Wizard build. So with 3 binders, I can easily do any of 8 classes

First come first served seems fine.

To be clear, I will typically let a new player take my preferred class. But only if they've shown they have prepared for it. I've even lent my special tokens to a new player if I see that had their heart set on it. But to be honest... it pisses me off when I plan for my runs for almost a year in advance, pay tons of money for tokens, struggle through ticket purchasing and planning to coordinate a group with my friends, drop hundreds of dollars on the credit card to purchase, return, purchase tickets to get enough slots, then work to build the perfect set up for my team and then not be able to use the tokens because someone who's never played, had no tokens just thinks a class sounds cool.

Note: I have never challenged a person for the card, I've thought about it... I try to show up 30 minutes early, unfortunately it doesn't always work. I dont think its elitist, us vets (just hit lvl 7) put our hearts and coin into this game.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.

Guedoji wrote: First come first served seems fine.

To be clear, I will typically let a new player take my preferred class. But only if they've shown they have prepared for it. I've even lent my special tokens to a new player if I see that had their heart set on it. But to be honest... it pisses me off when I plan for my runs for almost a year in advance, pay tons of money for tokens, struggle through ticket purchasing and planning to coordinate a group with my friends, drop hundreds of dollars on the credit card to purchase, return, purchase tickets to get enough slots, then work to build the perfect set up for my team and then not be able to use the tokens because someone who's never played, had no tokens just thinks a class sounds cool.

Note: I have never challenged a person for the card, I've thought about it... I try to show up 30 minutes early, unfortunately it doesn't always work. I dont think its elitist, us vets (just hit lvl 7) put our hearts and coin into this game.

This is pretty close to my situation too. I started TD at Gen Con 2016 but me and my wife didn’t get into buying tokens until last year. We are now both level 6 after only a couple of years attending Gen Con and Origins.

She loves playing rogue but so do a ton of others. So I got her the rogue relic necklace and have been working on buying tokens for her build over the last year (Guided Strike, Libram, etc). This year we had three regular dungeon runs at Gen Con. We showed up 30 mins early for E1 and were first ones so she took rogue. The other two runs we showed up 25 minutes early and there were already people in the room who had selected rogue. No big deal I expected this. I created contingency builds on the app and she still had a good time playing Dwarf Fighter. We never even thought about asking for a roll off. I just simply asked what is left. In E2 the person who took rogue Had some tokens but was only a normal build and the E3 rogue had legendaries.

But why should I upgrade that relic necklace to Raphael’s? I honestly want to build it but I cannot even guarantee she’ll ever get to even use it. After seeing how many people get to the room early and seeing how popular rogue is I don’t see a point in buying any rogue tokens any more. That will directly cost TD money because I’m buying less. I even loaned it my rogue tokens to both rogue players because they didn’t even have libram.

On another note I love playing cleric and never have to worry about the class being taken, so that’s a plus for me lol. From what I can tell it’s one of the least played classes.

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.

I doubt it would happen often. On all the runs I've done there have only been a few with conflicts. And if it takes people more then 60 seconds to roll dice then their at the wrong convention..

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.

I would rather have this then first come first served. I get there 25 minutes early, classes already taken, and most of us sit there for 50 minutes twiddling our thumbs waiting for the training room. I don’t think adding “5 minutes of dice rolls” is that bad, though it would obviously need to be play tested.

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.

It takes you 5-6 minutes to roll dice??

Flik wrote:

Harlax wrote:

Rob F wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote: no first come first serve
if the run is at 7pm. classes picked then (you show up after 7pm, you get whats left)..
if people want to play the same class..roll off

Think we have a winner here. Best idea so far IMO.

Sure, if you want to spent 5 or 6 of the 24 minutes rolling dice rather than recording stats.

I would rather have this then first come first served. I get there 25 minutes early, classes already taken, and most of us sit there for 50 minutes twiddling our thumbs waiting for the training room. I don’t think adding “5 minutes of dice rolls” is that bad, though it would obviously need to be play tested.

It's not a problem for your, from the sound of it our hanging out with regenerated stats, it's a major problem for the coach who has to tally and record 10 people stats in 24 minutes. Realistically best case 4 minutes to explain things and roll, 2 minutes per person with zero buffer assuming someone is ready to go right away. I cant speak for others but I feel like this would cause more harm then good.