TOPIC: It's time to eliminate the 3rd level player bonus

Druegar wrote:

Fiddy wrote: changing the party card to replace the names of the classes with the colors of the pucks and have 2 pucks for each color (20 pucks total compared to today's 14).

You can just put that thought out of y'all's minds right now.
#DreamCrusher

I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Allowing for duplicate classes would eliminate this problem as well as allow for more creative parties of players.

It's not easy, but it's not impossible. Mechanically it is doable, but for game balance there may have to be some limits. Perhaps only one Paladin may guard at a time, one Monk may use Stunning Fist, and only one Cleric may use Restore Power, etc.

Mechanically I don't think color is good because it's hard to see in the dungeon. Instead I'd suggest numbered pucks, from 1 to 10 (or even up to 12 to allow for the occasional overflow). Party card is numbered 1 through 12 as well. For me as a DM looking up the row for slider #6 would be quicker than finding Dwarf Fighter. Little number stickers could be put on the character card showing which row you are.

Players could carry their pucks through the dungeon; you get your numbered slider(s) at check-in perhaps and return them in epilogue in exchange for your treasure chips.

The other idea, for events that can use td.events at least, is to enhance that system to allow players to choose classes and even difficulty when buying tickets. Even better is to implement a "wishlist" system like GenCon has, but specific to True Dungeon.

So instead of fighting to buy out runs, etc, you would put in what you want. I want to play E1 at Nightmare as Ranger between 6PM and Midnight on Saturday night. Then at a certain time it runs through all of these "wishlist" items and creates parties with the correct classes and the correct difficulty level.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Fiddy wrote: changing the party card to replace the names of the classes with the colors of the pucks and have 2 pucks for each color (20 pucks total compared to today's 14).

You can just put that thought out of y'all's minds right now.
#DreamCrusher

I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Allowing for duplicate classes would eliminate this problem as well as allow for more creative parties of players.

It's not easy, but it's not impossible. Mechanically it is doable, but for game balance there may have to be some limits. Perhaps only one Paladin may guard at a time, one Monk may use Stunning Fist, and only one Cleric may use Restore Power, etc.

Mechanically I don't think color is good because it's hard to see in the dungeon. Instead I'd suggest numbered pucks, from 1 to 10 (or even up to 12 to allow for the occasional overflow). Party card is numbered 1 through 12 as well. For me as a DM looking up the row for slider #6 would be quicker than finding Dwarf Fighter. Little number stickers could be put on the character card showing which row you are.

Players could carry their pucks through the dungeon; you get your numbered slider(s) at check-in perhaps and return them in epilogue in exchange for your treasure chips.

lets ask eric if we can try it out in Grind first

i just dont think it will work.

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Fiddy wrote: changing the party card to replace the names of the classes with the colors of the pucks and have 2 pucks for each color (20 pucks total compared to today's 14).

You can just put that thought out of y'all's minds right now.
#DreamCrusher

I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Allowing for duplicate classes would eliminate this problem as well as allow for more creative parties of players.

It's not easy, but it's not impossible. Mechanically it is doable, but for game balance there may have to be some limits. Perhaps only one Paladin may guard at a time, one Monk may use Stunning Fist, and only one Cleric may use Restore Power, etc.

Mechanically I don't think color is good because it's hard to see in the dungeon. Instead I'd suggest numbered pucks, from 1 to 10 (or even up to 12 to allow for the occasional overflow). Party card is numbered 1 through 12 as well. For me as a DM looking up the row for slider #6 would be quicker than finding Dwarf Fighter. Little number stickers could be put on the character card showing which row you are.

Players could carry their pucks through the dungeon; you get your numbered slider(s) at check-in perhaps and return them in epilogue in exchange for your treasure chips.

lets ask eric if we can try it out in Grind first

i just dont think it will work.

He wasn't too interested, but nor did he give it much thought. I'd be happy to try it out in Grind, but yeah a lot of interactions need to be worked out.

In D&D you can do it, so I feel like it's possible.

Druegar wrote: Next time you (anyone) see me, ask me to tell you the story about reading. It's short, funny, and disturbingly profound.

Players don’t read. We could post tomorrow’s winning lottery numbers and people wouldn’t read them.

Fiddy wrote: changing the party card to replace the names of the classes with the colors of the pucks and have 2 pucks for each color (20 pucks total compared to today's 14).

Druegar wrote: You can just put that thought out of y'all's minds right now.
#DreamCrusher

Kirk Bauer wrote: I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand.

Watch me!

Kirk Bauer wrote: Mechanically I don't think color is good because it's hard to see in the dungeon.

THAT is what I was putting the kibosh on. Relying solely on reflective colors in the dungeon is a recipe for failure. (internal illumination is a different story)

Kirk Bauer wrote: Little number stickers could be put on the character card showing which row you are.

Something like that might work in Grind, but with the high turn-overs and coach movement in regular adventures, stickers are impractical.

Kirk Bauer wrote: Players could carry their pucks through the dungeon

We have enough problems with players walking off with pucks (accidentally or otherwise), let's please not do anything to give players any sense of ownership over them!

Harlax wrote: Players don’t read.

^^THIS!^^

@Kirk - you may be underestimating the complications. Preprinted stats on the party card become confusing and useless, so the cards must be totally blank. Coaches need a second reference to carry around to see what they are, so their lives are complicated. (Not a factor for people using the apps, but a lot of players don’t use them.

Logistically, TD can plan on roughly equal numbers of character cards. Allowing dupes complicates planning by adding uncertainty. What do you do when every party unexpectedly has three Rangers so you run out of Ranger cards on Friday afternoon? Maybe they figure it out eventually, but there will likely be some very peeved people for a few years before they do, unless they increase their printing costs five-fold. And we know where rising expenses lead...

And I’m guessing Jeff considered and rejected the idea years ago. How do you design a dungeon that is balanced for parties of 10 Fighters and 10 Wizards? (That’s extreme, but I hope you get the point.)

That’s just three reasons off the top of my head. I’m sure #Dreamcrusher has more, but him saying the equivalent of “absolutely not” is good enough for me.

Kirk Bauer wrote: The other idea, for events that can use td.events at least, is to enhance that system to allow players to choose classes and even difficulty when buying tickets. Even better is to implement a "wishlist" system like GenCon has, but specific to True Dungeon.

So instead of fighting to buy out runs, etc, you would put in what you want. I want to play E1 at Nightmare as Ranger between 6PM and Midnight on Saturday night. Then at a certain time it runs through all of these "wishlist" items and creates parties with the correct classes and the correct difficulty level.

Which would make it all but impossible for teams to run together.

Druegar wrote: Watch me!

Okay I said I wasn't going to commit anymore but I am still reading. I HAD to come back though to say this comment made my day.....lol.

jedibcg wrote:

Druegar wrote: Watch me!

Okay I said I wasn't going to commit anymore but I am still reading. I HAD to come back though to say this comment made my day.....lol.

Kirk Bauer wrote:

lazlo_hollyfeld1985 wrote:

Kirk Bauer wrote:

Druegar wrote:

Fiddy wrote: changing the party card to replace the names of the classes with the colors of the pucks and have 2 pucks for each color (20 pucks total compared to today's 14).

You can just put that thought out of y'all's minds right now.
#DreamCrusher

I don't think it should be dismissed out of hand. Allowing for duplicate classes would eliminate this problem as well as allow for more creative parties of players.

It's not easy, but it's not impossible. Mechanically it is doable, but for game balance there may have to be some limits. Perhaps only one Paladin may guard at a time, one Monk may use Stunning Fist, and only one Cleric may use Restore Power, etc.

Mechanically I don't think color is good because it's hard to see in the dungeon. Instead I'd suggest numbered pucks, from 1 to 10 (or even up to 12 to allow for the occasional overflow). Party card is numbered 1 through 12 as well. For me as a DM looking up the row for slider #6 would be quicker than finding Dwarf Fighter. Little number stickers could be put on the character card showing which row you are.

Players could carry their pucks through the dungeon; you get your numbered slider(s) at check-in perhaps and return them in epilogue in exchange for your treasure chips.

lets ask eric if we can try it out in Grind first

i just dont think it will work.

He wasn't too interested, but nor did he give it much thought. I'd be happy to try it out in Grind, but yeah a lot of interactions need to be worked out.

In D&D you can do it, so I feel like it's possible.

It's a mess I have no interest in wasting time on.

Allowing for duplicate classes requires a massive rework of special rules to handle loophole scenarios.

What stacks? What doesn't?

What happens when two Paladins guard each other?

What happens when there are 10 Monks/Rangers? Do you need 20 sliders?

Two Clerics can essentially turn their Restore Powers into Restore Spells by casting it on each other.

As a DM, it's hard enough to differentiate between and get the attention of just the 2 Wizards or just the two Fighters.

I'm also one of the few DM's who has had the experience of DM'ing even larger groups (the 20-30 players from True Raid) and differentiating between 2-4 members of the same class is an even BIGGER pain. That's why this year at Origins' Raid I had to take the step of having each group choose a Team Color, AS WELL as writing each player's first name on the party card.