TOPIC: Official Statement on Treasure Enhancers

Wow. I was traveling for work the past week and fell behind on posts and didn't realize how much I needed to catch up on. I've replied once, but as I keep reading I'm struck by more thoughts.

1. It appears that some people were either abusing the ability of TEs to accumulate tokens or there was at least a perception of such abuse. In either case, it got to the point where Jeff felt compelled to institute rules to try and head off this abuse.

2. It seems to me that the vast majority of people who post to these forums want TD to succeed and if Jeff just asked us to stop certain practices we probably would, rules wouldn't even be necessary.

3. However, there are probably a limited number of people who would continue to do whatever they wanted for whatever reasons drive them. My fear is that these people will just view the rules as a speed bump and figure out some way to circumvent them. That's what some people do. In the meantime, we will all be inconvenienced.

4. As far as ghosting goes, I have to agree with the comments that it shouldn't matter to Jeff whether 10 people each get 19 tokens or 1 person gets 190. Why should he care? The only time ghosting bothers me is when it ties up tickets other people who really want to go on a run can't get. It seems this rule might encourage more ghosting, so that is of some concern. When people just buy unused tickets to ghost, I don't consider that a problem at all.

5. My worst fear through all this is it eventually leads to Jeff trying to demotivate people by watering down the value of treasure tokens. That hurts everyone and even more so those who do a limited number of treasure pulls. People who accumulate hundreds of treasure tokens will still pull valuable tokens, just fewer of them. But those who pull a limited number of tokens are more likely to come away with nothing special. I think this would lower the excitement and value casual TD participants experience. I'm just hoping this doesn't happen.

6. If at some point they want to place a treasure cap on a run, I'd be ok with that, but think it needs to be high enough so that you get the current number of max pulls from the COA. Since 19 is already a limit in practice, I'd use at least 20. I know a lot of people would argue against a cap. They don't want to see TEs devalued, but it seems to me that every other token we have devalues over time. Why should TEs be any different?

ok, these were mostly just random thoughts, but thought I'd throw them out there given all the reading I had to catch up on.

So I keep seeing the 1 at 190 or 10 at 19 thing brought up. When we are talking about a group that always runs together I agree. But when 1 person with 10 TE run with 5 pugs and lends it out to everyone on each that 45 different people that are now getting the bonus treasure with out purchasing the tokens.

Dave wrote:
- true stuff -

... They don't want to see TEs devalued, but it seems to me that every other token we have devalues over time. Why should TEs be any different?

They just got devalued. Time will tell by how much.

jedibcg wrote:

Incognito wrote:
I do think it makes a difference.

When things are distributed among lots of people, you have less overall variability. One person getting rid of their collection doesn't impact the market much. If everyone is concentrated in just a few hands, diminishing marginal utility means those people have lots of extras, as opposed to if those tokens were more evenly distributed (among all players).

One potential danger of situations where one person coordinates/pools their group's tokens is that the participation of that group may rest on that single individual. If that person quits (or dies!) the rest of the group may stop playing.

So there certainly are advantages to trying to diversify the base instead of having things get concentrated.

Eric you forget I asked what it matters to Jeff. Jeff has stated multiple times that he does not deal with the secondary market.

I cannot speak about what happens with anyone's group beyond mine. I also cannot predict the future. I agree if something happens to me my group will stop playing. This has NOTHING to do with tokens. I buy all our tickets.

So I stick with my argument that Jeff doesn't care. Also that my deal with my friends does not affect you or anyone else.

I find it telling that ghosting was NOT allowed at TDC, even in cases when there were extra (unsold) tickets available. I know Kirk got screwed by the no ghosting policy in our sealed pack run.

I suspect it was because ticket prices were so cheap ($25) compared to GenCon. It could also be a contributing factor to why pulls had to be done there instead of treasure coins being handed out.

GaryM wrote: So I keep seeing the 1 at 190 or 10 at 19 thing brought up. When we are talking about a group that always runs together I agree. But when 1 person with 10 TE run with 5 pugs and lends it out to everyone on each that 45 different people that are now getting the bonus treasure with out purchasing the tokens.

That is something I hope this ruling stops, and probably one of the big reasons Jeff had to make this ruling. I hope people stick to loaning TE tokens to friends and family they do runs with, but I suspect some will just try to find a way around this ruling to continue to do things like join groups of new players to use them for token farming by sharing the extra token pulls.

GaryM wrote: ... 45 different people that are now getting the bonus treasure with out purchasing the tokens.

But somebody bought them. Jeff knows how many of each URTE and CoA was released into the wild...

So maybe that's a thought. Don't cap loot or ration the mix; ration the URTEs.

Each year, just sell X and no more. They'll all be gone the first day of preorders, and a lot of folks will have to Pick a Different Purple, but it'll give more control over how much loot gets drawn.

Brad Mortensen wrote:

GaryM wrote: ... 45 different people that are now getting the bonus treasure with out purchasing the tokens.

But somebody bought them. Jeff knows how many of each URTE and CoA was released into the wild...

So maybe that's a thought. Don't cap loot or ration the mix; ration the URTEs.

Each year, just sell X and no more. They'll all be gone the first day of preorders, and a lot of folks will have to Pick a Different Purple, but it'll give more control over how much loot gets drawn.

If you are going to limit the number of URTE and CoAs then I feel they should be randomly available and not just available to the initial herd buying tokens on the first day of preorders. If not, then you are providing a disincentive to new players joining during the year or folks who purchase tokens after the first day of preorders.

You could just say they aren't PYP-able, and only come randomly in packs

Brad Mortensen wrote: You could just say they aren't PYP-able, and only come randomly in packs

I think that would defeat the main reason Jeff continues to print new UR TE tokens, in that they bring in a lot of revenue True Dungeon needs.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: You could just say they aren't PYP-able, and only come randomly in packs

I think that would defeat the main reason Jeff continues to print new UR TE tokens, in that they bring in a lot of revenue True Dungeon needs.

If this was a major concern for Jeff, he could just make consumable URTEs. If the bonus was high enough, he would sell a ton.

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: You could just say they aren't PYP-able, and only come randomly in packs

I think that would defeat the main reason Jeff continues to print new UR TE tokens, in that they bring in a lot of revenue True Dungeon needs.

Not after this "no sharing" rule

Mike Steele wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: You could just say they aren't PYP-able, and only come randomly in packs

I think that would defeat the main reason Jeff continues to print new UR TE tokens, in that they bring in a lot of revenue True Dungeon needs.

For years and years and years, Henwy and I have argued that more and more treasure enhancers (among other things) was unsustainable. Yes, it is easy money initially but there are consequences and it would eventually result in a reckoning.

Henwy's favorite phrase was "robbing Peter to pay Paul." Now it looks like Peter has come back to collect his due and boy does he look pissed!

Only Jeff knows what the party cards at TDC look like. However, I can imagine that maybe there were just few too many "18's across the board." There is a critical point where if enough key people have 10 CoA's, then just about every party will end up with max treasure and no one really needs their own treasure enhancers any more since there are enough to be borrowed.