TOPIC: Dealing with "wandering" Treasure Enhancers

Picc wrote: To this point, does everyone get their own bag (costly and time consuming to adjudicate in coaching) or do we throw everyone tokens into a party bag (less costly, but all your eggs are in one basket, what if someone throws in a fake, etc). What if the entire bag lock and all gets lost, does TD assume the liability if so how do we stop people from "losing" bags on purpose?

The party bag idea is a non-starter for several reasons:

- The possibility of someone throwing in a fake and then taking a real one

- Some people have a sentimental attachment to a specific token (that was given as a gift). That token might be indistinguishable from other tokens.

- 2007 proofs are almost indistinguishable from normal 2007's. This would apply to the HoP.

- Most tokens have some minor differences (flaws, scratches, etc.). People would complain if they got back a treasure enhancer that was in worse condition.

- If it is locked up, then what happens if someone needs to leave in the middle of a dungeon. How do you open up the bag so that they can get their treasure enhancers back?

Also, if we are going to be scrutinizing treasure more carefully, why don't we do more careful checks of 6th+ level?

Look up the player and make sure the character is actually 6th level.

And disallow the 5th level Medallion of Nobility from providing the 6th level benefit?

Here's another possibility, that gets combined with another long-standing idea:

Reintroduce the volunteer who stays with the party the whole time. Have that volunteer check for treasure enhancers at some point (randomly after one of the seven rooms).

Hopefully, the party will finish at least one of the rooms early!

However, this requires additional volunteer manpower. But this idea was already being floated around (for other reasons). So if it gets implemented, it can also cover this issue too.

Jeff321 wrote: 4. Rarely does anyone leave training after entering. Just add a rule that training is "part of the dungeon" and once you're in, you can't leave.

Really? For many of us experienced players, Training Room is also known as Bathroom Break Time....

Incognito wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'm curious.

Is there any reason we can't just require showing tokens at the epilogue room when called up for your draws?

You have to physically have the tokens in hand in order to get the pulls.

Are we really seeing issues where the tokens are being shown at Coaching and Epilogue but being double used?

How exactly does that happen?

Under your proposed system, tokens could be double-used within the same group.

Say, the volunteer is checking in alphabetical order. Barbarian shows a Charm of Avarice. Steps off to the side and hands the same Charm to the Cleric while the Bard is being checked. The Cleric shows the same Charm of Avarice, steps off and hands it to the Fighter while the Druid is being checked. Etc.

You have them show all the tokens at once to avoid the scenario you just mentioned. First run at TDC we showed the DM all the tokens together at once.

Can we start at least this year with just more even enforcement at epilogue room? Why put more roadblocks when we haven't reached even follow through yet?

As a training room coach i can see the idea of the that most people that have URTE's don't really need training anyway. My concern/observation would be how many times (especially in pug's) that a player with extra's loan out during a run particularly to new players. Now i'm getting crunched for time as it has to be explained that so and so is loaning X treasure enhancer. Especially since fairly often training room time gets cut short due to coaching/party running behind to begin with.

Two points:

Before choosing a solution, make sure it will stop the behavior you don't want. If all it does is add complication and drama without stopping TE sharing, then why?

There's a huge difference between stealing one treasure with a bogus MoN and stealing hundreds with a CoA recycled across and between groups. At some point you have to weigh hassle vs benefit, and accept a small amount of leakage, or risk alienating the vast majority of people who don't cheat.

Incognito wrote:

Jeff321 wrote: 4. Rarely does anyone leave training after entering. Just add a rule that training is "part of the dungeon" and once you're in, you can't leave.

Really? For many of us experienced players, Training Room is also known as Bathroom Break Time....

So go coaching-restroom-training, just not coaching-training-restroom-training.

And do not, under any circs, go to the bathroom in the training room. They don't even have a bucket in there...

I have an easy solution, but I doubt anyone will like it.

Just remove all treasure enhancing tokens.

Everybody gets 3 tokens, maybe let 6th level players get their extra token for a total of 4. No other bonuses.

Then do a trade-in system for the current TE tokens. (What they can be traded in for can be debated about elsewhere.)

Milambus (Jake) wrote: I have an easy solution, but I doubt anyone will like it.

Just remove all treasure enhancing tokens.

Everybody gets 3 tokens, maybe let 6th level players get their extra token for a total of 4. No other bonuses.

Then do a trade-in system for the current TE tokens. (What they can be traded in for can be debated about elsewhere.)

A little like burning down your house to prevent anyone from breaking in.

OK, I read the whole thread and I think I can contribute constructively. I also have noticed that previous solutions have not been followed well. For example I have seen coaches cross out and correct the treasure counts outside of the boxes and then have those counts accepted, and I have seen TEs not checked at TDC. Any idea needs to be thoroughly enforced once it is decided.

I see two ways you can share treasure-enhancers, both of which I heard happened at TDC.

1) A party claims to have more CoAs than they actually have and show the same token more than once for the same party in the coaching and/or epilogue rooms.

2) Tokens are shown in the coaching room, then are taken out, and then those tokens are also shown in the epilogue room.

Let me start with a solution for #2 first. What needs to happen is you should only have to show your tokens one time, but it should be in a room that has controlled access. At TDC somebody could enter the epilogue room who wasn't in the dungeon, bringing treasure enhancers with them. I propose we ignore treasure enhancers in the coaching room and instead either record them in the training room or the epilogue room. If in the training room, you can't leave once you enter. If in the epilogue room then it should be monitored for people sneaking in who weren't in the dungeon. As a bonus for doing it in the epilogue room is you don't actually need to write anything on the party card, unless you want it for later review. You could just show your treasure-enhancers and then collect your tokens. The training room is a decent idea since parties with lots of treasure draws usually need less training, but I think the epilogue room is best. At TDC the draws were done in the epilogue room which was slow, but at GenCon I assume they will just hand out treasure chips, so they should have time to check the treasure enhancers.

For problem #1, I have two ideas. The first is a mat (like in the coaching room) where there are slots for treasure enhancers for each class. Each player puts their token(s) on the mat simultaneously, in the spots for their character class. Then the volunteer calls each class one at a time and the player collects their treasure enhancers at the same time as their treasure chips. An objection I can see is that a player might have an opportunity to take somebody else's treasure enhancer, although it seems that could just as easily happen in the coaching room today. But this definitely prevents sharing of treasure enhancers and also makes it easy for the volunteer to calculate the treasure amounts (which can be printed on the mat as well for quick reference).

Another solution for problem #1 works best only in the epilogue room. Make it a longer and skinnier room with only one entrance and one exit. The only way in is through room #7. The desk where the volunteer sits is in the middle of the room. When you enter you line up at the entrance side of the desk. Then one player at a time walks to the side of the desk, shows their treasure enhancers, collects their treasure, and then goes to the other half of the room (where the exit is). They can wait there or head out. Put some red lines on the floor so that only one person at a time is in the treasure area. This way they can't share tokens.

I'll try to draw it out here:

Was not aware this was a problem. However, as some have suggested, a more structured system when receiving treasure might be the answer. For example...

1) A third, standing member of the treasure team (treasure verifier) receives the party card.

2) The party lines up and each shows their TEs at the same time.

3) The treasure veriifier confirms each party member's TEs, checks the box next to their class, and hands the party card directly to a seated member of the treasure team who will distribute the chips or oversee the draws.

Pros:
In this way, everyone must have their TE's wit them on the adventure, and are not able to draw their treasure and pass the TE to someone else. It also minimizes the time spent verifying as it is done during the normal time a party waits for treasure draws.

Cons:
It adds another volunteer to the mix.