TOPIC: Dealing with "wandering" Treasure Enhancers

MasterED wrote:

Joshua Baessler wrote: If TE's were only checked in the epilogue room, there is only the risk of passing them off to the group behind or ahead.

I think the big scenario that is trying to be stopped is an unscruplous Rogue person shows 10 TE to the coach for team 1 and then also shows the same 10 TE to a coach for team 2.

When Team 1 reaches the Epilogue room the Rogue person mysteriously appears and shows the 10 TE to the volunteer for Team 1. Then when Team 2 appears they do the same thing.

By putting a TE check after Room 7 but before the Epilogue room and only ticketed players enter via Room 7 then the mysterious Rogue should be restricted from validating the TE. Of course Jeff will need to have an AC on standby for any issues and a plan on resolution.

Ed

The opinion of a filthy tree hugging Druid well experienced player like MasterED has a lot of weight to it. A post room 7 check is a great idea.

At the risk of the loot cap pitchfork mob rising up against me, what about some type of reward for carrying TE's through the dungeon? A Token of Scrupulousness for an extra treasure pull or something? Loot is what drives this problem, maybe loot can help solve it.

Cavor wrote:

jedibcg wrote: 2. No one has suggested TD take possession of the tokens, in fact Druegar said TD would not be doing that so not certain why we would need to think of that.

Multiple people have suggested this. Any bag method, other than individually possessed, is TD taking possession, even if a player carries it.

Yeah I am not certain that is true, because to for TD to take possession don't they have to have an intent to possess it? Also isn't possession a actual state of having control over an object? I don't believe either control or intention is happening so I am not certain that TD is taking possession. I am not a lawyer but that is my understanding of possession.

Druegar wrote:

Cavor wrote: A low tech way to do this is to number the tokens

Since TEs are not currently numbered, this solution would violate the "The retention method needs to be practical" caveat as mentioned in the first post.

Cavor wrote: have someone write down TE start times and crunch the numbers at a later time.

The goal is to prevent inappropriate treasure gain, not to learn about it after the fact.

Cavor wrote: When you catch someone without their TE tokens, what are you going to do?

Alter their treasure pull count.

Cavor wrote: As the tokens currently are, there is no way to ensure that they are not used on multiple runs.

That's why this thread was created.

Cavor wrote: The fostering of a secondary market makes the selling / lending / renting of tokens inherent

That doesn't mean TD needs to make it easy.

All true, If you're unwilling to change the tokens. The only 2 options remaining are physical restraint ( massive legal potential ) or checking more times, twice clearly does not work. Possibly changing when / where you check could have an impact on the uninformed.

I'm curious.

Is there any reason we can't just require showing tokens at the epilogue room when called up for your draws?

You have to physically have the tokens in hand in order to get the pulls.

Are we really seeing issues where the tokens are being shown at Coaching and Epilogue but being double used?

How exactly does that happen?

Mike Steele wrote: I haven't seen the Dungeon design, so I couldn't say which room you'd take minutes away from. But, I'd say one room should be designed so that it should be able to be solved in less than 12 minutes, leaving a few minutes for the token check. Or maybe a room where the rest of the group can be working on the puzzle while others are getting their tokens checked. It does seem like it would work best in a puzzle room than a combat room.

I don’t know how fast your group solves puzzles but mine frequently needs every second. Personally I would resent being asked to waste time in a 12 minute room for an airaport style security check.

Mike Steele wrote: I'm curious why you think a mid-Dungeon check has the same problems that a pre or post Dungeon check would have. A mid-Dungeon check doesn't give the party the opportunity to hand off the tokens to another group, like a pre or post Dungeon check would have.

Ok, first up when do we do it between rooms (theres no time with the current setup, if we add 12 minutes what do the parties with no TEs do during that time) or in a dungeon room(which penalizes groups who have TEs over those who don't. Are rare TEs included or just the really expensive ones. )

Also if were having trouble enforcing checks in epilogue what makes you think we will be able enforce them while people are trying to solve a puzzle, the GM is distracted answering questions, and in a poorly lit room with a twelve minute timer).

Even if we could be assured it would get done, we apparently can't find enough skilled volunteers to do the proper checks in epilogue (hence why coaches calculate treasure) so how are we going to find enough to wait around for the 20% of parties with TEs to do in dungeon spot checks.

Mike Steele wrote: I'd say if the group doesn't have the Treasure Enhancing tokens they have written down during a mid-Dungeon check, that shows a problem with that group, not a potential customer satisfaction problem.

So let's say we find a group with an issue. Do you want to be the one who accuses them of cheating between rooms? Because I don’t.

Joshua Long wrote: I guess it wasn't made clear about the security bag.
If it can be opened by anyone then yes the scenario you just mentioned can happen.
However, if it can be locked and then unlocked by an approved person in the epilogue then that scenario can be stopped.

To this point, does everyone get their own bag (costly and time consuming to adjudicate in coaching) or do we throw everyone tokens into a party bag (less costly, but all your eggs are in one basket, what if someone throws in a fake, etc). What if the entire bag lock and all gets lost, does TD assume the liability if so how do we stop people from "losing" bags on purpose?

I'm not saying the idea flat out couldn’t work but it comes with a host of logistical issues we'd need to work out first. Even if it all works perfectly, locking up tokens only assures they are in one place at a time, not that they wont be loaned out by someone who isn’t on a run at that precise moment.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'm curious.
Is there any reason we can't just require showing tokens at the epilogue room when called up for your draws?

That’s how it's supposed to work, but apparently it isn’t getting done.

Druegar wrote: Adding an 8th room to the dungeon for treasure checks is not an option.

Just to be clear I wasn't advocating an 8th room. Just like in TDC there was a long hallway. All it takes is 1 person at a table with a light to do a TE check when a party comes by.

Ed

Picc wrote:

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'm curious.
Is there any reason we can't just require showing tokens at the epilogue room when called up for your draws?

That’s how it's supposed to work, but apparently it isn’t getting done.

So maybe the solution is simply to get better enforcement of the rule in the Epilogue room. If it's taking too much time potentially add a second person to verify.

Honestly if people are told "You will have to show these tokens to the Treasure person to get your treasure draws" I expect it would be easy enough to have the tokens ready.

Might be a learning curve but if it's actually enforced people will adapt.

No need to add MORE stumbling blocks to the puzzle when the first piece isn't being done properly. Get checking to 100% validations and see if the issue still exists.

Picc wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I haven't seen the Dungeon design, so I couldn't say which room you'd take minutes away from. But, I'd say one room should be designed so that it should be able to be solved in less than 12 minutes, leaving a few minutes for the token check. Or maybe a room where the rest of the group can be working on the puzzle while others are getting their tokens checked. It does seem like it would work best in a puzzle room than a combat room.

I don’t know how fast your group solves puzzles but mine frequently needs every second. Personally I would resent being asked to waste time in a 12 minute room for an airaport style security check.

Mike Steele wrote: I'm curious why you think a mid-Dungeon check has the same problems that a pre or post Dungeon check would have. A mid-Dungeon check doesn't give the party the opportunity to hand off the tokens to another group, like a pre or post Dungeon check would have.

Ok, first up when do we do it between rooms (theres no time with the current setup, if we add 12 minutes what do the parties with no TEs do during that time) or in a dungeon room(which penalizes groups who have TEs over those who don't. Are rare TEs included or just the really expensive ones. )

Also if were having trouble enforcing checks in epilogue what makes you think we will be able enforce them while people are trying to solve a puzzle, the GM is distracted answering questions, and in a poorly lit room with a twelve minute timer).

Even if we could be assured it would get done, we apparently can't find enough skilled volunteers to do the proper checks in epilogue (hence why coaches calculate treasure) so how are we going to find enough to wait around for the 20% of parties with TEs to do in dungeon spot checks.

Mike Steele wrote: I'd say if the group doesn't have the Treasure Enhancing tokens they have written down during a mid-Dungeon check, that shows a problem with that group, not a potential customer satisfaction problem.

So let's say we find a group with an issue. Do you want to be the one who accuses them of cheating between rooms? Because I don’t.

Joshua Long wrote: I guess it wasn't made clear about the security bag.
If it can be opened by anyone then yes the scenario you just mentioned can happen.
However, if it can be locked and then unlocked by an approved person in the epilogue then that scenario can be stopped.

To this point, does everyone get their own bag (costly and time consuming to adjudicate in coaching) or do we throw everyone tokens into a party bag (less costly, but all your eggs are in one basket, what if someone throws in a fake, etc). What if the entire bag lock and all gets lost, does TD assume the liability if so how do we stop people from "losing" bags on purpose?

I'm not saying the idea flat out couldn’t work but it comes with a host of logistical issues we'd need to work out first. Even if it all works perfectly, locking up tokens only assures they are in one place at a time, not that they wont be loaned out by someone who isn’t on a run at that precise moment.

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'm curious.
Is there any reason we can't just require showing tokens at the epilogue room when called up for your draws?

That’s how it's supposed to work, but apparently it isn’t getting done.

I doubt the person checking the Treasure Enhancing tokens will accuse the group of cheating if the tokens don't match up with what is on the party card, but I do expect they will modify the Party Card to be correct.

I'm not saying that checking the tokens within the Dungeon is ideal, but the current method is being abused, and Jeff has asked for suggestions on how to stop this abuse (Jeff of course would use much nicer wording). Adding a room after training or after Room #7 isn't an option, per Druegar. Checking in the Coaching and/or Epilogue room have already been shown not to work. Checking within the Dungeon seems to be the best remaining option.

After reading this whole thread, I really like the idea of requiring TE's to be shown in the training room, not coaching. For this to work the training room needs to be a physically separate location, more like Gen Con rather than it was at TDC.

Here are some reasons I like this solution:

1. It doesn't take time from the the actual dungeon.
2. People who possess TE's are more likely to be the ones who don't need training anyway, so it won't take time for that.
3. It gives coaches more time to record the other stats if they don't have to deal with TE's.
4. Rarely does anyone leave training after entering. Just add a rule that training is "part of the dungeon" and once you're in, you can't leave.

The alternative I guess is make epilogue an "8th room" (so that people can't enter it from reverse) and check TE's there. That might require more space though.

No one should accuse anyone of "cheating." You are simply enforcing a rule/process.

"I'm sorry, you don't have your tokens with you. I can only give you credit for the tokens you can show me now."

No need to throw charged words out there.

Going back to my token lanyard idea. Let's think worst case scenario.

Once all three IS nuggets are produced we could be looking at as many as 7 items:

Horn of Plenty or Amulet of Treasure Finding.
Ring of Riches
Charm of Good Fortune.
IS Silver Nugget
IS ? Nugget
IS ? Nugget
Proof of 6th level token

So there are many combinations that a single token holder with lanyard would not accommodate.

Maybe MasterEd could come up with some sort of "Lanyard of Bling"

Arcanist Kolixela wrote: I'm curious.

Is there any reason we can't just require showing tokens at the epilogue room when called up for your draws?

You have to physically have the tokens in hand in order to get the pulls.

Are we really seeing issues where the tokens are being shown at Coaching and Epilogue but being double used?

How exactly does that happen?

Under your proposed system, tokens could be double-used within the same group.

Say, the volunteer is checking in alphabetical order. Barbarian shows a Charm of Avarice. Steps off to the side and hands the same Charm to the Cleric while the Bard is being checked. The Cleric shows the same Charm of Avarice, steps off and hands it to the Fighter while the Druid is being checked. Etc.