TOPIC: Dealing with "wandering" Treasure Enhancers

Harlax wrote: '


We need some clarity on this topic.

But if the ruling is such that I can't let my son use my second CoA when he is running with me, I will be pretty unhappy.

From Druegar's first post:

"Issue: Some people are showing their TEs in the coaching room and then handing them off to someone else to use on a different run." (Emphasis mine)

Assuming the problem statement is accurate, the rule has nothing to do with your or Mongo's situation.

If there's more to it, then we need to make sure the issue statement is complete so that we can try to solve all these TE problems at once.

Incognito wrote:

Mongo wrote: I feel bad now...

I didn't mean to violate the rules... And I am sorry.

Until I hear different, I will keep them within my own family for now.

This kind of defeat the purpose of owning 10 CoA's and the Silver Nuggets... unless I can still use them when I try to solo (assuming we can at GenCon, unlike TDC where it was banned, but the reason it was banned made sense... to give more people a chance to enjoy).

It's unclear what the rules are.

And *if* you are violating the rules, then A LOT of people are violating the rules. (But that is certainly possible, as you've seen with many cases where people are mistaken on the rules).

It also creates an interesting situation in that Jeff has often used treasure enhancers and synergy type items to help boost sales. So it would be a bit...questionable...if any sort of lending was not allowed at all.

That's why this is a big gray area....

The other clear abuse scenario is sharing the same TE in your group (ie. Get yours recorded, put them away, then loan tokens to a friend which includes the same TE).

As for jeffs request/guidance: i think it is intentionally unclear...
I dont think he wants to stop people like mongo, harlax, mike steele, or myself from using TE with our friends and family, but he does want to prevent someone from showing up with 10 CoA in the coach room who starts to barter loaning them out.

If jeffs statement doesnt technically include loaning to friends, mr make-a-deal can argue that the others are just friends helping him support his token buying (after all, those of us who buy all the tokens for our group DO get all treasure in the end, right?).
But if jeff makes it a hard rule, he HAS to crack down on those of us sharing with friends.

So, this non-decisive request gives jeff and TD the leeway to allow us to continue sharing without abusing and still tell mr make-a-deal that he is disturbing the event and needs to stop. So, im not expecting any clarification from TPTB.

Unfortunately, this leaves us with some awkward questions of what exactly is okay/where to draw the line.
I have 3 CoA for myself, wife, and best friend; all good.
(For all these examples, assume my wife is at work and i have an extra CoA)
Local friend who rarely plays joins us, so i loan CoA; still good?
Member of DDA doesnt have CoA, so i loan CoA...
Friend of Ravens who ive never met joins (without raven here), i loan CoA...?
A friend cancels at gencon, i meet someone at an escape room the day before and convince them to try TD/buy my extra ticket. I loan CoA...?

And what about my approach with loaning my AoTF to new players last year: if you are just going to sell your tokens, please give me some of the extra treasure for loaning this, if you are starting your own collection keep them all for a little extra boost to get started.


I do find it interesting that this aspect of token sharing/loaning will likely not be addressed by the original post request for a TE audit...these are actually 2 different issues.

kurtreznor wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mongo wrote: I feel bad now...

I didn't mean to violate the rules... And I am sorry.

Until I hear different, I will keep them within my own family for now.

This kind of defeat the purpose of owning 10 CoA's and the Silver Nuggets... unless I can still use them when I try to solo (assuming we can at GenCon, unlike TDC where it was banned, but the reason it was banned made sense... to give more people a chance to enjoy).

It's unclear what the rules are.

And *if* you are violating the rules, then A LOT of people are violating the rules. (But that is certainly possible, as you've seen with many cases where people are mistaken on the rules).

It also creates an interesting situation in that Jeff has often used treasure enhancers and synergy type items to help boost sales. So it would be a bit...questionable...if any sort of lending was not allowed at all.

That's why this is a big gray area....

The other clear abuse scenario is sharing the same TE in your group (ie. Get yours recorded, put them away, then loan tokens to a friend which includes the same TE).

As for jeffs request/guidance: i think it is intentionally unclear...
I dont think he wants to stop people like mongo, harlax, mike steele, or myself from using TE with our friends and family, but he does want to prevent someone from showing up with 10 CoA in the coach room who starts to barter loaning them out.

If jeffs statement doesnt technically include loaning to friends, mr make-a-deal can argue that the others are just friends helping him support his token buying (after all, those of us who buy all the tokens for our group DO get all treasure in the end, right?).
But if jeff makes it a hard rule, he HAS to crack down on those of us sharing with friends.

So, this non-decisive request gives jeff and TD the leeway to allow us to continue sharing without abusing and still tell mr make-a-deal that he is disturbing the event and needs to stop. So, im not expecting any clarification from TPTB.

Unfortunately, this leaves us with some awkward questions of what exactly is okay/where to draw the line.
I have 3 CoA for myself, wife, and best friend; all good.
(For all these examples, assume my wife is at work and i have an extra CoA)
Local friend who rarely plays joins us, so i loan CoA; still good?
Member of DDA doesnt have CoA, so i loan CoA...
Friend of Ravens who ive never met joins (without raven here), i loan CoA...?
A friend cancels at gencon, i meet someone at an escape room the day before and convince them to try TD/buy my extra ticket. I loan CoA...?

And what about my approach with loaning my AoTF to new players last year: if you are just going to sell your tokens, please give me some of the extra treasure for loaning this, if you are starting your own collection keep them all for a little extra boost to get started.

I do find it interesting that this aspect of token sharing/loaning will likely not be addressed by the original post request for a TE audit...these are actually 2 different issues.

You left out my scenario, which is even greyer: I buy ten tickets, sell 8 to newbies at a discount in exchange for a big chunk of their treasure. Not friends, and not renting. I'm just pre-buying a bunch of their treasure chips to help bring in some new players by subsidizing their first run. Still good?

kurtreznor wrote:

Incognito wrote:

Mongo wrote: I feel bad now...

I didn't mean to violate the rules... And I am sorry.

Until I hear different, I will keep them within my own family for now.

This kind of defeat the purpose of owning 10 CoA's and the Silver Nuggets... unless I can still use them when I try to solo (assuming we can at GenCon, unlike TDC where it was banned, but the reason it was banned made sense... to give more people a chance to enjoy).

It's unclear what the rules are.

And *if* you are violating the rules, then A LOT of people are violating the rules. (But that is certainly possible, as you've seen with many cases where people are mistaken on the rules).

It also creates an interesting situation in that Jeff has often used treasure enhancers and synergy type items to help boost sales. So it would be a bit...questionable...if any sort of lending was not allowed at all.

That's why this is a big gray area....

The other clear abuse scenario is sharing the same TE in your group (ie. Get yours recorded, put them away, then loan tokens to a friend which includes the same TE).

As for jeffs request/guidance: i think it is intentionally unclear...
I dont think he wants to stop people like mongo, harlax, mike steele, or myself from using TE with our friends and family, but he does want to prevent someone from showing up with 10 CoA in the coach room who starts to barter loaning them out.

If jeffs statement doesnt technically include loaning to friends, mr make-a-deal can argue that the others are just friends helping him support his token buying (after all, those of us who buy all the tokens for our group DO get all treasure in the end, right?).
But if jeff makes it a hard rule, he HAS to crack down on those of us sharing with friends.

So, this non-decisive request gives jeff and TD the leeway to allow us to continue sharing without abusing and still tell mr make-a-deal that he is disturbing the event and needs to stop. So, im not expecting any clarification from TPTB.

Unfortunately, this leaves us with some awkward questions of what exactly is okay/where to draw the line.
I have 3 CoA for myself, wife, and best friend; all good.
(For all these examples, assume my wife is at work and i have an extra CoA)
Local friend who rarely plays joins us, so i loan CoA; still good?
Member of DDA doesnt have CoA, so i loan CoA...
Friend of Ravens who ive never met joins (without raven here), i loan CoA...?
A friend cancels at gencon, i meet someone at an escape room the day before and convince them to try TD/buy my extra ticket. I loan CoA...?

And what about my approach with loaning my AoTF to new players last year: if you are just going to sell your tokens, please give me some of the extra treasure for loaning this, if you are starting your own collection keep them all for a little extra boost to get started.


I do find it interesting that this aspect of token sharing/loaning will likely not be addressed by the original post request for a TE audit...these are actually 2 different issues.

Were the new players you were loaning AoTF to on your run, or on different runs?

I do agree that Jeff was probably intentionally a bit vague, as it's a complex issue and probably portions are hard to enforce. I tend to agree with you, that loaning to friends and family on a run with you is probably more OK than jumping into a group and working out token loaning agreements in the coaching room. Loaning tokens to people on a run that you're not on seems clearly over the line.

Mongo wrote: I feel bad now...

I didn't mean to violate the rules... And I am sorry.

Until I hear different, I will keep them within my own family for now.

This kind of defeat the purpose of owning 10 CoA's and the Silver Nuggets... unless I can still use them when I try to solo (assuming we can at GenCon, unlike TDC where it was banned, but the reason it was banned made sense... to give more people a chance to enjoy).

The problem here is I think you are being penalized, If the entire party isn't running with a Charm of Good Fortune you are losing out on treasure chips. You should at least be able to show your COA's and get the full 4 chips from that bonus.

I know we are really bad at this but can we attempt to say on topic for the task that was requested. Dealing with "wandering" TE's. If folks want to discuss other issues with TE's please do so in another topic.

jedibcg wrote: I know we are really bad at this but can we attempt to say on topic for the task that was requested. Dealing with "wandering" TE's. If folks want to discuss other issues with TE's please do so in another topic.

+1

Someone earlier mentioned using envelopes. I'm slightly worried they could rip/be accidentally opened easily. I wear cargo shorts to TD and put a lot of stuff in them. Most paper products that go in my pockets do not come back out the same way they went in. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that has this experience.

Joshua Long wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I know we are really bad at this but can we attempt to say on topic for the task that was requested. Dealing with "wandering" TE's. If folks want to discuss other issues with TE's please do so in another topic.

+1

Someone earlier mentioned using envelopes. I'm slightly worried they could rip/be accidentally opened easily. I wear cargo shorts to TD and put a lot of stuff in them. Most paper products that go in my pockets do not come back out the same way they went in. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that has this experience.

I do think envelopes would be the practical solution and you could use tyvek ones which are very durable.

Ed

MasterED wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I know we are really bad at this but can we attempt to say on topic for the task that was requested. Dealing with "wandering" TE's. If folks want to discuss other issues with TE's please do so in another topic.

+1

Someone earlier mentioned using envelopes. I'm slightly worried they could rip/be accidentally opened easily. I wear cargo shorts to TD and put a lot of stuff in them. Most paper products that go in my pockets do not come back out the same way they went in. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that has this experience.

I do think envelopes would be the practical solution and you could use tyvek ones which are very durable.

Ed

O yeah, those would probably do. It would cost around an extra 20 cents per person per run. No clue if they have extra budget to spend to address this problem though. (It was never made clear to begin with if the solution was allowed to require extra money or not )

MasterED wrote:

Joshua Long wrote:

jedibcg wrote: I know we are really bad at this but can we attempt to say on topic for the task that was requested. Dealing with "wandering" TE's. If folks want to discuss other issues with TE's please do so in another topic.

+1

Someone earlier mentioned using envelopes. I'm slightly worried they could rip/be accidentally opened easily. I wear cargo shorts to TD and put a lot of stuff in them. Most paper products that go in my pockets do not come back out the same way they went in. I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one that has this experience.

I do think envelopes would be the practical solution and you could use tyvek ones which are very durable.

Ed

My idea was using treasure bags and zip ties, I like the idea of small envelopes better. +1 as well.

Maybe once some alternate solutions are fleshed out, some sort of poll could be done to judge which ones have the most support, as another data point for Jeff to consider.

Personally, I'm in favor of just having the Coaches mark in a matrix on the back of the Party Card which TE Tokens each character class has, and then having them checked in the Training Room, with a policy of treating the Training Room like a Dungeon room, in which if you leave after you enter, your Dungeon is over. If someone doesn't have the tokens in the training room that the back of the Party Card notes, the matrix on the back of the party card and the amount of Treasure Coins due to the player(s) would be adjusted accordingly.

That avoids needing extra items like envelopes, bags, ties, stickers, etc and the time it takes to do those processes on both the front and back ends. It also avoids requiring any check or process at all in the Exit room, which is already busy enough. The impact in the training room should be minimal, because the people that are going to have a lot of TE Tokens are probably also the people that don't really need to do training. The brand new groups will likely not have any TE Tokens and can go right into training.

Mike Steele wrote: Maybe once some alternate solutions are fleshed out, some sort of poll could be done to judge which ones have the most support, as another data point for Jeff to consider.

Personally, I'm in favor of just having the Coaches mark in a matrix on the back of the Party Card which TE Tokens each character class has, and then having them checked in the Training Room, with a policy of treating the Training Room like a Dungeon room, in which if you leave after you enter, your Dungeon is over. If someone doesn't have the tokens in the training room that the back of the Party Card notes, the matrix on the back of the party card and the amount of Treasure Coins due to the player(s) would be adjusted accordingly.

That avoids needing extra items like envelopes, bags, ties, stickers, etc and the time it takes to do those processes on both the front and back ends. It also avoids requiring any check or process at all in the Exit room, which is already busy enough. The impact in the training room should be minimal, because the people that are going to have a lot of TE Tokens are probably also the people that don't really need to do training. The brand new groups will likely not have any TE Tokens and can go right into training.

I like to disagree with everything Mike says as a matter of principle so, uhm... I got nothin'.

Well, except maybe the matrix on the back. I think we have columns on the front for that, but that's a minor quibble.