TOPIC: Dealing with "wandering" Treasure Enhancers

I am also not in favor of pulling out TE. I think showing in both epilogue room and training room would be enough.
Design the path so that the training room is the start of a "secure area" that can't be left once entered, much like the dungeon.
Once the dungeon is completed, have TEs checked in the epilogue room.
If someone has TE for more than one person, they go first, then the people they are carrying for.

I am not a fan of spot checks in the dungeon, but I would be willing to do it if necessary.

I was having the same thought as Matthew Hayward with either the tamper-proof stickers or for that matter, engraving, heat-stamping, or ink-stamping the TE's with sequential numbers. While this wouldn't stop the mischief, there would at least be evidence of whether it is happening or not.

I do have another solution, but it would be a major change and it may be too close to surrendering tokens for some people. It would involve replacing the epilogue rooms with a single (or 2) treasure room(s) with 350+ locked drawers (preferably metal).

1. In the coaching room each player would be given a numbered key. On a separate sheet of paper the coach would mark which TE's each player has and the total # of tokens they get. They would also have to mark difficulty of the run. Each player would sign the sheet showing they agree with the total and that they have the key. They then string their placard cord through the key ring so the key is visible the entire dungeon and cannot be lost. Alternatively, it could be attached to the light.

2. Before the training room they stop by the treasure room where the volunteer there watches each player place their TE's in the correct drawer and lock the drawer. The volunteer keeps the signed sheet.

3. Each of the drawers would have a slot in them. At some point while the players are in the dungeon, a volunteer in the treasure room inserts all of the treasure tokens, completion tokens, and the XP card into the appropriate drawers through the slots.

4. In the 7th room the DM there would have to hand out appropriate survival buttons (or not).

5. After the 7th room the players end up in the treasure room, unlock their drawer, check and take the contents. There would need to be containers to return lights, strings, and clips.

The bad: Yes, the players are leaving valuable tokens behind, but only they have the key. The drawers with locks would be an investment, but I don't think they would be too expensive, relatively speaking.

The good: No more waiting in line in the epilogue room. Nobody else touches or has access to the player's TE's. If a player has to leave the dungeon early, they can immediately take their tokens -- but no guarantee the treasure tokens with be in the drawer yet.

jedibcg wrote:

balthasar wrote: Would it be possible to make a change to the party card, ideally in the box that records the total pulls? Treat it like the damage boxes, but instead of the types, use the initials for the different enhancers? The coach would circle the tokens for each character so when they get checked, whether in the dungeon or at epilogue, they need to match. It could get cumbersome as more of the Ioun Stones are released, but it may work for now.

I don't understand what the type matters. If they don't change what does that prove or prevent?

This would aid in spot checks in the dungeon. If the DM or NPC sees a RoR and CoGF marked next to the Rogue, they can ask to see those two tokens during any 'sown' time in a room. Once a player has been checked, they treasure stamp that players line on the card.

Raven wrote:

FirstGladiator wrote: I'm with Raven on the subject that every player is going to have to carry their own treasure enhancers during the whole dungeon. Players can carry a tube full of CoA's but that person only gets credit for one CoA or for anything else.

I didn't say they need to carry them through the whole dungeon.
Just that (if tokens are being checked one-player-at-a-time in Epilogue) that they would have to carry them through Epilogue.

But I find Kirk's suggestion interesting, too: The idea of a large card/grid where someone could lay out the party TE's, and leave them there (all showing at once) while the party members came through one at a time to collect their loot. (But only for those situations where a single person carries the TEs for several players... it should not be a mandatory grid, or you'll get situations where people's TE's end up going back to the wrong players. Just one bump of the table is all it takes!)

I don't see the need for each person to individually carry their TE tokens. If you have someone outfitting the whole group (like I do), and has all of the TE tokens conveniently together, that makes the volunteers job MUCH easier. Instead of having to check the tokens from 10 different players, the Volunteer can take a quick look at my binder page with 10 Charms of Avarice and 10 Ioun Stone Silver Nuggets and verify the whole group. As long as the person holding the TE tokens goes first, that should work perfectly.

Requiring the person holding the TE tokens to break them all out for each person, have the volunteer do 10 checks instead of one, and having the person who holds the TE tokens collect them all back and put them back into the binder (or wherever they store them) seems incredibly inefficient and time-consuming - plus adds some risk that one of them might get lost or dropped. Which is something to consider given that potentially we're talking about $10,000+ worth of tokens.

Beertram wrote: I was having the same thought as Matthew Hayward with either the tamper-proof stickers or for that matter, engraving, heat-stamping, or ink-stamping the TE's with sequential numbers. While this wouldn't stop the mischief, there would at least be evidence of whether it is happening or not.

I do have another solution, but it would be a major change and it may be too close to surrendering tokens for some people. It would involve replacing the epilogue rooms with a single (or 2) treasure room(s) with 350+ locked drawers (preferably metal).

1. In the coaching room each player would be given a numbered key. On a separate sheet of paper the coach would mark which TE's each player has and the total # of tokens they get. They would also have to mark difficulty of the run. Each player would sign the sheet showing they agree with the total and that they have the key. They then string their placard cord through the key ring so the key is visible the entire dungeon and cannot be lost. Alternatively, it could be attached to the light.

2. Before the training room they stop by the treasure room where the volunteer there watches each player place their TE's in the correct drawer and lock the drawer. The volunteer keeps the signed sheet.

3. Each of the drawers would have a slot in them. At some point while the players are in the dungeon, a volunteer in the treasure room inserts all of the treasure tokens, completion tokens, and the XP card into the appropriate drawers through the slots.

4. In the 7th room the DM there would have to hand out appropriate survival buttons (or not).

5. After the 7th room the players end up in the treasure room, unlock their drawer, check and take the contents. There would need to be containers to return lights, strings, and clips.

The bad: Yes, the players are leaving valuable tokens behind, but only they have the key. The drawers with locks would be an investment, but I don't think they would be too expensive, relatively speaking.

The good: No more waiting in line in the epilogue room. Nobody else touches or has access to the player's TE's. If a player has to leave the dungeon early, they can immediately take their tokens -- but no guarantee the treasure tokens with be in the drawer yet.

People will lose the keys. Infrequently, but it will happen.

Sounds like the consensus is starting to drift towards doing the initial audit in the training room with a policy of once you enter you can not leave. Then a controlled flow of people in the epilogue where all TE's are presented at once prior. (Though the way in which the TE's are presented still seems to be in flux of each person showing only their characters vs all at once.)

Matthew Hayward wrote: Final thought for the night:

I don't like the "every player must physically handle their URTEs."


I equip an entire group. I keep all our URTEs in two binder pages.


I know I am not the only one to do this.


I don't want to have to pull my tokens out of their sleeves and hand them to 9 people and collect them back every time through the dungeon, doing so exponentially increases the chance of them getting lost and adds nothing to reduce the ability to abuse them - in fact it is much easier for my coach and epilogue checker to look at 2 sheets each with 10 tokens than it is to look at 10 peoples hands.

this. so much this.

Friendly Reminders:

• I can understand people just now coming into this conversation not wanting to read all 10+ pages of posts, but please at least read & remember the first one. Specifically, the three requirements: practical, quick, and TD can't be the tokens' caretaker.
• We are concerned about Treasure Enhancers (TE) in general. We are not limiting the conversation to Ultra Rare Treasure Enhancers (URTE). E.g., Charm of Avarice is not a purp.

Druegar

Can you provide us information as to why Jeff felt the check in coaching and epi room did not work at TDC? That might help us to form a better plan.

How about this?

Everyone gets their starter bag of tokens already, so bags are plentiful.

Give coaches the same reams of wristbands we get for the runs.

After TEs are verified, owner of said TEs places them in starter bag and coach writes down run time and date and uses the wristband to seal it closed (or we could use zip ties if you wanted stronger security, but still attach the wristband to the bag).

Owner proceeds through dungeon to kick ass and take names.

In Epilogue room volunteer clips wristband off (or ziptie, or whatever), then distributes treasure.

No bag? No treasure.
No wristband on TE bag? No treasure.
Time on wristband does not match your run? No treasure.
Wristband or ziptie not intact? No treasure.

Coaches would have to have some spare bags or larger bags on hand for the people who have more than just 10 CoAs, but I don't think that would be a problem.

Not a ton we can do about the ultra rares but maybe reissue COA with numbered series on them and record the number used, they have to display the numbered COA at the end. I don't see any other way around it.

Joshua Baessler wrote: How about this?

Everyone gets their starter bag of tokens already, so bags are plentiful.

Give coaches the same reams of wristbands we get for the runs.

After TEs are verified, owner of said TEs places them in starter bag and coach writes down run time and date and uses the wristband to seal it closed (or we could use zip ties if you wanted stronger security, but still attach the wristband to the bag).

Owner proceeds through dungeon to kick ass and take names.

In Epilogue room volunteer clips wristband off (or ziptie, or whatever), then distributes treasure.

No bag? No treasure.
No wristband on TE bag? No treasure.
Time on wristband does not match your run? No treasure.
Wristband or ziptie not intact? No treasure.

Coaches would have to have some spare bags or larger bags on hand for the people who have more than just 10 CoAs, but I don't think that would be a problem.

At worst it is 40 tokens today. AoTF or HoP, CoGF, RoR, ISSN. 40 tokens will fit in 4 standard bags. No need for bigger bags. That if it is one owner they carry 4 starter bags. I say this as someone they would have to carry 2 bags. In a few years this would be worst 60 tokens or 6 bags (not fun but doable). For me it would be 4 bags. I could handle 4 bags. Hmmm I think this has potential. Though at the point someone could have too many TE tokens to easily fit in the starters bags that 10 people start off with. But that is a few years down the road I hope.