TOPIC: $8k Super Condensed Auction - CANCELLED

Endgame wrote:

Miathan wrote: I look at every auction because obviously we can always use more tokens but I always turn away from an auction that has more than one bid increment away for winning bids. In this case when I saw the 12$ for one bidder for 1k bars and another getting them for 5.25 I immediately stop following the auction and I’m not the only one if previously failed auctions that do this are any indication

There is a very significant counter argument for this though. Let’s say I have the winning bid on 40x 1k bars at $14 and it’s currently at $10. Now someone comes in and bids $15 on 2 1k bars. You’re screwing me pretty hard (to the tune of $152) if you bump the bid to $14 on my bids on the other 38 bars that the new bidder has no intention of purchasing.

You beat me to it. I'm not an auction runner (only tangentially discussed mechanics on KermitKing's (Mitchell) with his since we sit in the same room and have had a few other discussions with other folks), but I've heard both points discussed. That may be something that needs even further clarification for some.

But I’m not bidding on a single bar I would be bidding a single increment on one bar and when I don’t win it and it goes to 10.25 then my bid will be going against the remaining 10$ bars.when I send in a bid it is always against the lowest amount on the board I’m just not going to send a million pms going up by 25¢

Miathan wrote: But I’m not bidding on a single bar I would be bidding a single increment on one bar and when I don’t win it and it goes to 10.25 then my bid will be going against the remaining 10$ bars.when I send in a bid it is always against the lowest amount on the board I’m just not going to send a million pms going up by 25¢

I could be 100% wrong, but isn't there a multi unit auction thread out there somewhere where the mechanics are discussed (I'm not advocating for any specific methodology and the nuance makes my head hurt this early )

Dragon6483 wrote:

Miathan wrote: But I’m not bidding on a single bar I would be bidding a single increment on one bar and when I don’t win it and it goes to 10.25 then my bid will be going against the remaining 10$ bars.when I send in a bid it is always against the lowest amount on the board I’m just not going to send a million pms going up by 25¢

I could be 100% wrong, but isn't there a multi unit auction thread out there somewhere where the mechanics are discussed (I'm not advocating for any specific methodology and the nuance makes my head hurt this early )

There certainly is, and it was recently revived.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=584&id=250441

TL;DR
There are at least a couple opinions out there on how the auction logic should work.
Auctioneers need to be very clear about how *their* auction works.

Dragon6483 wrote:

Miathan wrote: But I’m not bidding on a single bar I would be bidding a single increment on one bar and when I don’t win it and it goes to 10.25 then my bid will be going against the remaining 10$ bars.when I send in a bid it is always against the lowest amount on the board I’m just not going to send a million pms going up by 25¢

I could be 100% wrong, but isn't there a multi unit auction thread out there somewhere where the mechanics are discussed (I'm not advocating for any specific methodology and the nuance makes my head hurt this early )

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=584&id=250441

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Dragon6483 wrote:

Miathan wrote: But I’m not bidding on a single bar I would be bidding a single increment on one bar and when I don’t win it and it goes to 10.25 then my bid will be going against the remaining 10$ bars.when I send in a bid it is always against the lowest amount on the board I’m just not going to send a million pms going up by 25¢

I could be 100% wrong, but isn't there a multi unit auction thread out there somewhere where the mechanics are discussed (I'm not advocating for any specific methodology and the nuance makes my head hurt this early )

There certainly is, and it was recently revived.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=584&id=250441

TL;DR
There are at least a couple opinions out there on how the auction logic should work.
Auctioneers need to be very clear about how *their* auction works.

This is true and I remember a lot of the same disagreements going round and round there. I’m simply stating for me I do not bid when the winning bids are that far apart and I do t think I am in the minority because I have seen a lot of them fail and Mathew’s auctions last year had a large amount of success. Clearly their are always more than one data point I’m sure for success or failure but for me this is the main one for not bidding on auctions

Miathan wrote:

Wade Schwendemann (Dr. Uid) wrote:

Dragon6483 wrote:

Miathan wrote: But I’m not bidding on a single bar I would be bidding a single increment on one bar and when I don’t win it and it goes to 10.25 then my bid will be going against the remaining 10$ bars.when I send in a bid it is always against the lowest amount on the board I’m just not going to send a million pms going up by 25¢

I could be 100% wrong, but isn't there a multi unit auction thread out there somewhere where the mechanics are discussed (I'm not advocating for any specific methodology and the nuance makes my head hurt this early )

There certainly is, and it was recently revived.

truedungeon.com/forum?view=topic&catid=584&id=250441

TL;DR
There are at least a couple opinions out there on how the auction logic should work.
Auctioneers need to be very clear about how *their* auction works.

This is true and I remember a lot of the same disagreements going round and round there. I’m simply stating for me I do not bid when the winning bids are that far apart and I do t think I am in the minority because I have seen a lot of them fail and Mathew’s auctions last year had a large amount of success. Clearly their are always more than one data point I’m sure for success or failure but for me this is the main one for not bidding on auctions

I guess my point was to ask the auctioneer to see what information I may be missing before just writing it off.

Endgame wrote:

Miathan wrote: I look at every auction because obviously we can always use more tokens but I always turn away from an auction that has more than one bid increment away for winning bids. In this case when I saw the 12$ for one bidder for 1k bars and another getting them for 5.25 I immediately stop following the auction and I’m not the only one if previously failed auctions that do this are any indication

There is a very significant counter argument for this though. Let’s say I have the winning bid on 40x 1k bars at $14 and it’s currently at $10. Now someone comes in and bids $15 on 2 1k bars. You’re screwing me pretty hard (to the tune of $152) if you bump the bid to $14 on my bids on the other 38 bars that the new bidder has no intention of purchasing.

This may just be a difference in how people view things, but when I bid for items, I mentally allocate the full cost of the items as "spent" money. That is, I always assume that I'll pay the maximum bid. Anything that comes in under that price is a happy surprise.

In your scenario, i don't feel "screwed" because I always assumed I'd pay that extra $152. I've been in enough auctions now to know prices aren't real until the last day, anyhow, and I've never seen a split where even single item is sold for significantly less than the other items.

TBF, I'm also a fan of the multi-unit auction system that was in use last year.

Marc D wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Miathan wrote: I look at every auction because obviously we can always use more tokens but I always turn away from an auction that has more than one bid increment away for winning bids. In this case when I saw the 12$ for one bidder for 1k bars and another getting them for 5.25 I immediately stop following the auction and I’m not the only one if previously failed auctions that do this are any indication

There is a very significant counter argument for this though. Let’s say I have the winning bid on 40x 1k bars at $14 and it’s currently at $10. Now someone comes in and bids $15 on 2 1k bars. You’re screwing me pretty hard (to the tune of $152) if you bump the bid to $14 on my bids on the other 38 bars that the new bidder has no intention of purchasing.

This may just be a difference in how people view things, but when I bid for items, I mentally allocate the full cost of the items as "spent" money. That is, I always assume that I'll pay the maximum bid. Anything that comes in under that price is a happy surprise.

In your scenario, i don't feel "screwed" because I always assumed I'd pay that extra $152. I've been in enough auctions now to know prices aren't real until the last day, anyhow, and I've never seen a split where even single item is sold for significantly less than the other items.

TBF, I'm also a fan of the multi-unit auction system that was in use last year.

I felt that way, until I had a 3.50 bid on 100 dwarven steel and my bid amount was at 1.75. The final bid that closed the auction was 5 dwarven steel at some value over 3.50, thus doubling the amount I had to pay.

Now, when I bid on something in large quantities, I do something like this:

Bids for Auction X:
40 Dwarven steel at 3.50
20 Dwarven steel at 3.25
20 Dwarven steel at 3.00
10 Dwarven steel at 2.75
5 Dwarven steel at 2.50
5 Dwarven steel at 2.25

This way I can take a chance at getting a good deal, but someone bidding $5.00 on 1 Dwarven Steel (possibly trying to manipulate the auction a bit to close it by causing 1 bid to increase total amount bid quite a bit) doesn't cost me like it would with 100 @ 3.50.

Its more work for me to compose the bid, and its more work for the auction runner to handle it, but its the only way to protect yourself from one bid for a small number of items dramatically spiking the price for all your items.

Endgame wrote:

Marc D wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Miathan wrote: I look at every auction because obviously we can always use more tokens but I always turn away from an auction that has more than one bid increment away for winning bids. In this case when I saw the 12$ for one bidder for 1k bars and another getting them for 5.25 I immediately stop following the auction and I’m not the only one if previously failed auctions that do this are any indication

There is a very significant counter argument for this though. Let’s say I have the winning bid on 40x 1k bars at $14 and it’s currently at $10. Now someone comes in and bids $15 on 2 1k bars. You’re screwing me pretty hard (to the tune of $152) if you bump the bid to $14 on my bids on the other 38 bars that the new bidder has no intention of purchasing.

This may just be a difference in how people view things, but when I bid for items, I mentally allocate the full cost of the items as "spent" money. That is, I always assume that I'll pay the maximum bid. Anything that comes in under that price is a happy surprise.

In your scenario, i don't feel "screwed" because I always assumed I'd pay that extra $152. I've been in enough auctions now to know prices aren't real until the last day, anyhow, and I've never seen a split where even single item is sold for significantly less than the other items.

TBF, I'm also a fan of the multi-unit auction system that was in use last year.

I felt that way, until I had a 3.50 bid on 100 dwarven steel and my bid amount was at 1.75. The final bid that closed the auction was 5 dwarven steel at some value over 3.50, thus doubling the amount I had to pay.

Now, when I bid on something in large quantities, I do something like this:

Bids for Auction X:
40 Dwarven steel at 3.50
20 Dwarven steel at 3.25
20 Dwarven steel at 3.00
10 Dwarven steel at 2.75
5 Dwarven steel at 2.50
5 Dwarven steel at 2.25

This way I can take a chance at getting a good deal, but someone bidding $5.00 on 1 Dwarven Steel (possibly trying to manipulate the auction a bit to close it by causing 1 bid to increase total amount bid quite a bit) doesn't cost me like it would with 100 @ 3.50.

Its more work for me to compose the bid, and its more work for the auction runner to handle it, but its the only way to protect yourself from one bid for a small number of items dramatically spiking the price for all your items.

Yeah, I get that and how frustrating it is.

I guess the it just doesn't make much intuitive sense as a second bidder to come in with a high max bid and spike the price on one item while all the other items are low. Like, on an automated system where I'm not wasting anyone's time but my own, I could go through and bid the increment one-by-one on each item to spade out where the "max" is, then place bids over that max on the quantity I actually want.

The point is, I'd feel a bit cheated as the second bidder if the auction format didn't try to get me the best price. And I've had situations where I've bid on quantities less than the full allotment where I was "earlier" but had my winning bid be more than the second-highest bidder, because a third bidder set a floor on the entire lot. Like, my max was $5 for 10x, as was bidder #2 for 100x. But bidder #3 set a bid of $3 for 100x. As bidder #1, I got my 10x at $5, since ties go to the winner. but bidder #2 got 90x at $3, because bidder #3 set that price. That format certainly does not reward early bidding, because the later bidder got a better price.

Endgame wrote: I felt that way, until I had a 3.50 bid on 100 dwarven steel and my bid amount was at 1.75. The final bid that closed the auction was 5 dwarven steel at some value over 3.50, thus doubling the amount I had to pay.

Now, when I bid on something in large quantities, I do something like this:

Bids for Auction X:
40 Dwarven steel at 3.50
20 Dwarven steel at 3.25
20 Dwarven steel at 3.00
10 Dwarven steel at 2.75
5 Dwarven steel at 2.50
5 Dwarven steel at 2.25

This way I can take a chance at getting a good deal, but someone bidding $5.00 on 1 Dwarven Steel (possibly trying to manipulate the auction a bit to close it by causing 1 bid to increase total amount bid quite a bit) doesn't cost me like it would with 100 @ 3.50.

Its more work for me to compose the bid, and its more work for the auction runner to handle it, but its the only way to protect yourself from one bid for a small number of items dramatically spiking the price for all your items.

I am still trying to understand all this. In your scenario, if you are the leading bidder with 100 dwarven steel at $1.75 (max bid $3.50) and someone comes along and places a bid for 5 dwarven steel at max bid $5, wouldn't the outcome be:
New lead bidder - 5 units at $2 (I assumed $0.25 as the bid increment)
You - 95 units at $1.75

You will lose units to the competition, but I wouldn't think your price would rise until more bids were applied at which point the auction would reach new equilibrium at the max price set by the highest person that does not get any units.

Am I close?

Jeff Greene wrote: I am still trying to understand all this. In your scenario, if you are the leading bidder with 100 dwarven steel at $1.75 (max bid $3.50) and someone comes along and places a bid for 5 dwarven steel at max bid $5, wouldn't the outcome be:
New lead bidder - 5 units at $2 (I assumed $0.25 as the bid increment)
You - 95 units at $1.75

You will lose units to the competition, but I wouldn't think your price would rise until more bids were applied at which point the auction would reach new equilibrium at the max price set by the highest person that does not get any units.

Am I close?

I don't understand his scenario either but I think you not correct.

To me it be 5 at 3.75 (the new bidder must beat his max of 3.5 before becoming the new max bidder. his others would be still at 1.75. I don't know if that is how anyone actually runs it. Nor is that how I would bid on it. I do think that his multiple max at different amounts is the best way if he doesn't want to pay 3.5 for all of them. But for the most part I will leave this up for the auctioneer and auctionee to figure out and just go with whatever is in their rules.