TOPIC: +5 Final Transmute Recipes

jacob717 wrote:

Chris Heuer wrote: Let's talk about some of these 3 and 4 star recipes this year because some of them seem too expensive for what they do. My wife and I have been buying tokens for a few years now and playing since 2012 so consider ourselves to be mid-range players. We have some resources but not nearly as much as the big collectors. We are responsible for outfitting our party at Gen Con each year and in return everyone gives us their tokens.

Canteen of Quaffing (***) May drink a healing potion as free action 1/game

• 50 GP Icewood Canteen
• 200 GP equivalent

This recipe is fine and good for new players. The effect isn't that useful to us so we'll probably make one just for fun.

Figurine of Power: Dog (***) Heal another character 4hp 1/game

• 100 GP Jade Sculpture or 100 GP Malachite Sculpture
• 4× Darkwood Plank
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

4 Darkwood Plank is too much for this. Charm of Health (+2 health in charm slot) is effectively half of this and didn't take any trade goods. Horn of the Blessed Ox (heal 2hp 1/game slotless) is also effectively half of this and SLOTLESS and only required 1 Minotaur Hide. Given those it seems like this should be more like 2 Darkwood Plank, especially since it takes up a very limited slot.

Belt of Ogre Mage Power (****) +3 strength

• Belt of Ogre Power
• Shaman’s Charm
• 10× Mystic Silk
• 1,000 GP equivalent
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

10 mystic silk for a gain of 1 strength... who is this for? Look at Blessed Pants of the Hare or Blessed Tempest Gloves from last year which only took 1 trade good each. I get that this is similar to the Blessed Shirt of Strength from two years ago but maybe that was too expensive as well. At least 2016 had the Shirt of Baneful Prowess as something for players like us to shoot for.

Charm of Treasure Boosting (****) +1 treasure pull with only 1 TE equipped

• Charm of the Faithful
• 1× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Minotaur Hide
• 1× Philosopher’s Stone
  plus any FOUR (×4) of the following (duplicates are fine):
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger
• any 2019 Monster Trophy

We were really looking forward to this one until we saw the recipe.That's a lot of trade goods but at least they aren't hard to get from one token order. But then 4 monster bits. A player wants this so that they can get more treasure pulls to get those monster bits. Perhaps there should be a GP equivalent on this one?

Enchanter's Whetstone (****) +1 to hit and +1 damage to 1 rare weapon

• +1 Keen Bolt
• 1× Aragonite
• 1× Dwarven Steel
• 1× Elven Bismuth
• 500 GP equivalent
  plus ONLY ONE of the following:
• Devil Drake Claw
• Giant Blood
• Helkyrie Ichor
• Troll Shaman Finger

We were really looking forward to this token as well until we see Aragonite and Elven Bismuth in the recipe. Again, who is this for? Anyone who can afford to waste Aragonite and Elven Bismuth for such a small gain probably uses a UR weapon anyway. Would it be possible drop those from the recipe? This would be fun as a two stage recipe with the first staging only giving one of the two effects...but not Aragonite or Elven Bismuth in either.

Bead of the Lucky Traveler (***** Story Arc, aka "4C") +2 to saves and free movement

• Bead Firehold
• Elder Orb Eye (2016)
• Lava Beast Nugget (2016)
• Spidaur Venom (2016)
• Succubus Horn (2016)
• Draccus Scale (2017)
• Iron Rook Rivet (2017)
• Old Holly Sprig (2017)
• Scrael Claw (2017)
• Devil Drake Claw (2018)
• Giant Blood (2018)
• Helkyrie Ichor (2018)
• Troll Shaman Finger (2018)
• Monster Trophy #1 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #2 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #3 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #4 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #5 (2019)
• Monster Trophy #6 (2019)

We were fully expecting this recipe since the Icecrag Hero's Earcuff. We were unable to make the Icecrag Hero's Earcuff because we were missing 1 Genie Vapor that we couldn't find anywhere after extensive searching online. We've been trading and saving monster trophies to make whatever the next story item would be. What a disappointment! This is much worse than the Icecrag Hero's Earcuff and costs a lot more monster bits. Free movement is a worthless effect when the GMs always say it doesn't work because of "magic".

A bunch of random thoughts in there but I guess the summary is that 2018 recipes felt pretty good to players like us and 2019 doesn't because they many are too expensive.

I'm in a similar spot and agree across the board. I was really looking forward to making most of these but the costs don't seem worth it in the long run as I'd just rather save for later or trade the goods for the UR versions.

Agree with the story transmute as well. I was hoping to finish out my 4 sets of monster tokens but I will probably only be able to make 2 unless it is changed to 4 of 6 2019 bits.

I haven't gone through the rest of the posts but Chris and Jacob, I think the Canteen of Quaffing is most useful for new players. It's basically allowing you to take a healing potion for FREE. Even if it's an uncommon and healing 3-4 points. It's still a FREE action which doesn't take away from combat unless you're using Medallion of Mystic mouth or something else that requires your free action. IMHO, I think it's a great token.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote:

Xavon wrote:

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Chris Heuer wrote: Free movement is a worthless effect when the GMs always say it doesn't work because of "magic".

Can you explain this scenario a bit more?

I've seen free movement be very impactful and applied to a players advantage several times in the last few years:

In 2015:
Water Weird pulled people into a water vortex - free movement prevented it.
Ethereal Hunter grabbed a player - free movement prevented it.
Drow Assassin had webs that players got stuck in - free movement prevented it.

TDC:
Gelatinous Cube captured a player - free movement prevented it.

It doesn't come up all the time, but I haven't seen it negated in situations where it seems like it should apply?

On paper I agree, but you know at least once on each of those years I had a DM tell me my free movement would not work because reasons. It's a training issue to be sure but it still happens a lot.

This. Or at least I hope it is a training issue. Like in my review, I had two DMs tell me that enemies did s special 'unpreventable' type of a common damage (one cold, the other poison); that is was not Eldritch but that may tokens would not prevent any of the damage. I expect this is a training issue.

I realize not every DM can know every token effect, but they should know 'Free Movement protects from this', 'tokens reduce/prevent this damage', and probably a few other common things I am not thinking of because I'm still not awake.

On the other hand, if TPTB are specifically saying that a monster does 'special, unpreventable cold damage' that ignore all our tokens, or 'a special version of Slow that bypasses Free Movement', then that's a whole other ball of wax

Also calling it now, next year there will be reports of "mega surprise" bypassing normal can not be surprised, and all HC+ monsters will have +10 initiative, just a hunch.

At least to regard for free movement, its a training issue, although I would still like to hear specific incidents.

The modules all specify the free movement effects for the rooms I listed.

I can't tell if people are saying: "I was caught in the Water Weird's Vortex and the DM said free movement didn't help" or if they are saying "I think free movement should have allowed me to walk along the rainbow bridge and it didn't."

One is a training issue, one is a player disagreeing with a module.

I have been playing for only 3 years but I can’t think of a single time free movement was even part of any rooms I have been in.

It’s marked on the party card, the dm usually just handles it, without announcing it.

Now that things have slowed down a bit Id again like to put forward the idea of allowing widseths (or one of the other UR instruments) to be used as an alternate UR to transmute relic lute. It seems appropriate given the legendary and recipie #2

Picc wrote: Now that things have slowed down a bit Id again like to put forward the idea of allowing widseths (or one of the other UR instruments) to be used as an alternate UR to transmute relic lute. It seems appropriate given the legendary and recipie #2

I sort of hope this doesn't happen. Here is why:

I want lots of Widseth's Mystical Lutes available for players at the "just one UR" or slightly higher token tiers.

If it could be an ingredient for the Relic, a lot of them will get taken out of circulation that way.

If I were building a party and could have one UR, Widseth's would be it.

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote: Now that things have slowed down a bit Id again like to put forward the idea of allowing widseths (or one of the other UR instruments) to be used as an alternate UR to transmute relic lute. It seems appropriate given the legendary and recipie #2

I sort of hope this doesn't happen. Here is why:

I want lots of Widseth's Mystical Lutes available for players at the "just one UR" or lower token tiers.

If it could be an ingredient for the Relic, a lot of them will get taken out of circulation that way.

If I were building a party and could have one UR, Widseth's would be it.

Would it though, every widseths that was taken out would be replaced by a relic lute. Besides that as is I cant really see a lot of widseths (or other instruments) hitting the market with recipie 2 out there. I mean U guess a few might from one relic parties bit at that point aren't we just robbing Peter to pay paul?

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote: Now that things have slowed down a bit Id again like to put forward the idea of allowing widseths (or one of the other UR instruments) to be used as an alternate UR to transmute relic lute. It seems appropriate given the legendary and recipie #2

I sort of hope this doesn't happen. Here is why:

I want lots of Widseth's Mystical Lutes available for players at the "just one UR" or lower token tiers.

If it could be an ingredient for the Relic, a lot of them will get taken out of circulation that way.

If I were building a party and could have one UR, Widseth's would be it.

Would it though, every widseths that was taken out would be replaced by a relic lute. Besides that as is I cant really see a lot of widseths (or other instruments) hitting the market with recipie 2 out there. I mean U guess a few might from one relic parties bit at that point aren't we just robbing Peter to pay paul?

Given the recipes, there could be 2 pulled out for each legendary though.

Also, I think the larger point is that with the recipies now, to make the relic requires the new lute, which means more Widseth's URs are available for resale, allowing newer bards access to the "best" UR instrument.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Picc wrote:

Matthew Hayward wrote:

Picc wrote: Now that things have slowed down a bit Id again like to put forward the idea of allowing widseths (or one of the other UR instruments) to be used as an alternate UR to transmute relic lute. It seems appropriate given the legendary and recipie #2

I sort of hope this doesn't happen. Here is why:

I want lots of Widseth's Mystical Lutes available for players at the "just one UR" or lower token tiers.

If it could be an ingredient for the Relic, a lot of them will get taken out of circulation that way.

If I were building a party and could have one UR, Widseth's would be it.

Would it though, every widseths that was taken out would be replaced by a relic lute. Besides that as is I cant really see a lot of widseths (or other instruments) hitting the market with recipie 2 out there. I mean U guess a few might from one relic parties bit at that point aren't we just robbing Peter to pay paul?

Given the recipes, there could be 2 pulled out for each legendary though.

Also, I think the larger point is that with the recipies now, to make the relic requires the new lute, which means more Widseth's URs are available for resale, allowing newer bards access to the "best" UR instrument.

By that logic we should never allow an old UR to be turned in for any reason because they could be resold.

Picc wrote:
By that logic we should never allow an old UR to be turned in for any reason because they could be resold.

That is true, that would be the logical extension of that argument.

I think this is a special case was the point.

If we allowed Widseth's, we should allow all 3. That's why we probably shouldn't allow any. That's my opinion.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

Picc wrote:
By that logic we should never allow an old UR to be turned in for any reason because they could be resold.

That is true, that would be the logical extension of that argument.

I think this is a special case was the point.

If we allowed Widseth's, we should allow all 3. That's why we probably shouldn't allow any. That's my opinion.

I think widseth's is the special case since the legendary is also widseth's . It's also the only one of the old three urs that has been released twice. End of the day I'm not going to get to bent out of shape either way. It's just odd to me that it isn't usable in the relic recipie.

I also think it could be cool to establish a president of an old class iconic UR being usable in the class legendaries during their first year.

Picc wrote: By that logic we should never allow an old UR to be turned in for any reason because they could be resold.

I wouldn't say it's absolute, but having a variety of price points available in the secondary market is probably good for the game. Some of my first URs were +2 Great Axe (the year +2 deathcleaver obsoleted it) and medallion of heroism (after the charm of heroism transmute period were over) for around $40 each. I wasn't ready to jump into $250 purchases at that point or $100 PYPs from the resellers but I was comfortable with the going obsoleted UR price.

Maybe in this case it's fine to use it as an ingredient and delay it cascading down to the lower price point players a few years (and end up with less overall available), but I think getting more low token collection level players willing to pick up bard makes pick up normal/hardcore more interesting for the majority of the player base. The blowgun flute was nice for that, but I'm not sure that is good enough to convince a lot of people to pick it up from the resellers and pay shipping.

Aegoce wrote:

Picc wrote: By that logic we should never allow an old UR to be turned in for any reason because they could be resold.

I wouldn't say it's absolute, but having a variety of price points available in the secondary market is probably good for the game. Some of my first URs were +2 Great Axe (the year +2 deathcleaver obsoleted it) and medallion of heroism (after the charm of heroism transmute period were over) for around $40 each. I wasn't ready to jump into $250 purchases at that point or $100 PYPs from the resellers but I was comfortable with the going obsoleted UR price.

Maybe in this case it's fine to use it as an ingredient and delay it cascading down to the lower price point players a few years (and end up with less overall available), but I think getting more low token collection level players willing to pick up bard makes pick up normal/hardcore more interesting for the majority of the player base. The blowgun flute was nice for that, but I'm not sure that is good enough to convince a lot of people to pick it up from the resellers and pay shipping.

To be honest I think we will see more of the 2019 lute dropping sub 100 (after the transmute period) long before we see any of the old sing/act UR instruments at that range.

I wonder if the alternate recipe for the Legendary Lute used the current values of the out of print URS or just valued them at PYP prices. That's why the alternate recipe for CoA was cheaper, because of the value of the components. Plus, it was a concession to the HoP owners since this was kind of like reprinting it.