TOPIC: +5 Final Transmute Recipes

Arnold wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Its in a weird spot, similar to Enchanter's Whetstone stone, where its somewhere between a rare, and effectively half a UR, and I think suffers from the fact there is really only a narrow gap between a Rare and a UR. You make it too cheap you have veterans going "Why would you ever invest in a UR" you make it too expensive you leave players going "Why don't I just buy a UR" or "This small enhancement isn't worth the cost." I do think the charm is a bit over costed, and I do think a lot of the time the recipes come down more on the veteran's side of the perspective. I mean, that makes sense, that's the vast majority of active forum goers. I feel this creates a very narrow target audience window though of those who want to spend some money but not too much money. I find it odd a lot of the time, these middle of the road targeted transmutes end up being developed around what trade goods people have the most sitting around, but that anyone who has that much sitting around is probably not the target audience for actually using these pieces? Sometimes that leaves me to ponder how many transmutes go towards people planning to use them directly and how many are going to token shops. Okay, I don't know where I was going with this, it turned into a stream of conscious, sorry =/

I agree that the costs on the exalted tokens seems unfriendly to new players.

I'm a HUGE fan of the whetstone. I don't know why some individuals keep invoking - "at that price, I could just buy an UR."

Others have already stated how poor an investment UR weapons really are. The whetstone gives a very strong bump to rares that makes them almost UR level.

I was just considering buying the barbarian in my group the UR Death Flail. The onyx reverse auction for it has creeping lower and lower. I finally stopped to do the analysis and it turns out that a +1 Scimitar is nearly as powerful as the flail when you factor in the whetstone.

The triple crit is not going to come into play all that often, so I don't put much value in that ability.

Now if I transmute the barbarian a whetstone, he'll have an almost-flail and he retains the good bump if he has to switch to +1 Iron Skulls.

If he has to switch classes and fight with a one-handed weapon, he's still going to get a great bump. The whetstone is just so versatile. I'm a huge fan, and I don't know why the target audience is so lukewarm on it.

I was originally assuming I'd be passing on the Whetstone. But after some thought, I'm now planning on making a Whetstone for my primary Cleric build (currently all UR+ tokens). The reason? For ranged, the Whetstone plus a stack of Rare +1 Dwarven (or Gnomish) Throwing Hammers comes out pretty close to last year's Relic Hammer (which I've avoided) and is considerably cheaper.

Fiddy wrote:

Arnold wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Its in a weird spot, similar to Enchanter's Whetstone stone, where its somewhere between a rare, and effectively half a UR, and I think suffers from the fact there is really only a narrow gap between a Rare and a UR. You make it too cheap you have veterans going "Why would you ever invest in a UR" you make it too expensive you leave players going "Why don't I just buy a UR" or "This small enhancement isn't worth the cost." I do think the charm is a bit over costed, and I do think a lot of the time the recipes come down more on the veteran's side of the perspective. I mean, that makes sense, that's the vast majority of active forum goers. I feel this creates a very narrow target audience window though of those who want to spend some money but not too much money. I find it odd a lot of the time, these middle of the road targeted transmutes end up being developed around what trade goods people have the most sitting around, but that anyone who has that much sitting around is probably not the target audience for actually using these pieces? Sometimes that leaves me to ponder how many transmutes go towards people planning to use them directly and how many are going to token shops. Okay, I don't know where I was going with this, it turned into a stream of conscious, sorry =/

I agree that the costs on the exalted tokens seems unfriendly to new players.

I'm a HUGE fan of the whetstone. I don't know why some individuals keep invoking - "at that price, I could just buy an UR."

Others have already stated how poor an investment UR weapons really are. The whetstone gives a very strong bump to rares that makes them almost UR level.

I was just considering buying the barbarian in my group the UR Death Flail. The onyx reverse auction for it has creeping lower and lower. I finally stopped to do the analysis and it turns out that a +1 Scimitar is nearly as powerful as the flail when you factor in the whetstone.

The triple crit is not going to come into play all that often, so I don't put much value in that ability.

Now if I transmute the barbarian a whetstone, he'll have an almost-flail and he retains the good bump if he has to switch to +1 Iron Skulls.

If he has to switch classes and fight with a one-handed weapon, he's still going to get a great bump. The whetstone is just so versatile. I'm a huge fan, and I don't know why the target audience is so lukewarm on it.

I was originally assuming I'd be passing on the Whetstone. But after some thought, I'm now planning on making a Whetstone for my primary Cleric build (currently all UR+ tokens). The reason? For ranged, the Whetstone plus a stack of Rare +1 Dwarven (or Gnomish) Throwing Hammers comes out pretty close to last year's Relic Hammer (which I've avoided) and is considerably cheaper.

Honestly the stone is amazingly good, putting aside the versatility it gives you it basically turns the rare mighty sling into the ur mighty sling +1 which by itself is way worth it, not mentioning how good it is with +3 bliss style weapons. In retrospect I'd go so far as it say it's under costed.

Fiddy wrote:

Arnold wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Its in a weird spot, similar to Enchanter's Whetstone stone, where its somewhere between a rare, and effectively half a UR, and I think suffers from the fact there is really only a narrow gap between a Rare and a UR. You make it too cheap you have veterans going "Why would you ever invest in a UR" you make it too expensive you leave players going "Why don't I just buy a UR" or "This small enhancement isn't worth the cost." I do think the charm is a bit over costed, and I do think a lot of the time the recipes come down more on the veteran's side of the perspective. I mean, that makes sense, that's the vast majority of active forum goers. I feel this creates a very narrow target audience window though of those who want to spend some money but not too much money. I find it odd a lot of the time, these middle of the road targeted transmutes end up being developed around what trade goods people have the most sitting around, but that anyone who has that much sitting around is probably not the target audience for actually using these pieces? Sometimes that leaves me to ponder how many transmutes go towards people planning to use them directly and how many are going to token shops. Okay, I don't know where I was going with this, it turned into a stream of conscious, sorry =/

I agree that the costs on the exalted tokens seems unfriendly to new players.

I'm a HUGE fan of the whetstone. I don't know why some individuals keep invoking - "at that price, I could just buy an UR."

Others have already stated how poor an investment UR weapons really are. The whetstone gives a very strong bump to rares that makes them almost UR level.

I was just considering buying the barbarian in my group the UR Death Flail. The onyx reverse auction for it has creeping lower and lower. I finally stopped to do the analysis and it turns out that a +1 Scimitar is nearly as powerful as the flail when you factor in the whetstone.

The triple crit is not going to come into play all that often, so I don't put much value in that ability.

Now if I transmute the barbarian a whetstone, he'll have an almost-flail and he retains the good bump if he has to switch to +1 Iron Skulls.

If he has to switch classes and fight with a one-handed weapon, he's still going to get a great bump. The whetstone is just so versatile. I'm a huge fan, and I don't know why the target audience is so lukewarm on it.

I was originally assuming I'd be passing on the Whetstone. But after some thought, I'm now planning on making a Whetstone for my primary Cleric build (currently all UR+ tokens). The reason? For ranged, the Whetstone plus a stack of Rare +1 Dwarven (or Gnomish) Throwing Hammers comes out pretty close to last year's Relic Hammer (which I've avoided) and is considerably cheaper.

Nice. I'm glad to see some veterans show the whetstone love. I hope we can bring awareness to just how good it really is so it eventually lands in the hands of its target audience.

Themed Whetstone run? Whetstone, Treasure Enhancers, and only rares?

Picc wrote:

Fiddy wrote:

Arnold wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Its in a weird spot, similar to Enchanter's Whetstone stone, where its somewhere between a rare, and effectively half a UR, and I think suffers from the fact there is really only a narrow gap between a Rare and a UR. You make it too cheap you have veterans going "Why would you ever invest in a UR" you make it too expensive you leave players going "Why don't I just buy a UR" or "This small enhancement isn't worth the cost." I do think the charm is a bit over costed, and I do think a lot of the time the recipes come down more on the veteran's side of the perspective. I mean, that makes sense, that's the vast majority of active forum goers. I feel this creates a very narrow target audience window though of those who want to spend some money but not too much money. I find it odd a lot of the time, these middle of the road targeted transmutes end up being developed around what trade goods people have the most sitting around, but that anyone who has that much sitting around is probably not the target audience for actually using these pieces? Sometimes that leaves me to ponder how many transmutes go towards people planning to use them directly and how many are going to token shops. Okay, I don't know where I was going with this, it turned into a stream of conscious, sorry =/

I agree that the costs on the exalted tokens seems unfriendly to new players.

I'm a HUGE fan of the whetstone. I don't know why some individuals keep invoking - "at that price, I could just buy an UR."

Others have already stated how poor an investment UR weapons really are. The whetstone gives a very strong bump to rares that makes them almost UR level.

I was just considering buying the barbarian in my group the UR Death Flail. The onyx reverse auction for it has creeping lower and lower. I finally stopped to do the analysis and it turns out that a +1 Scimitar is nearly as powerful as the flail when you factor in the whetstone.

The triple crit is not going to come into play all that often, so I don't put much value in that ability.

Now if I transmute the barbarian a whetstone, he'll have an almost-flail and he retains the good bump if he has to switch to +1 Iron Skulls.

If he has to switch classes and fight with a one-handed weapon, he's still going to get a great bump. The whetstone is just so versatile. I'm a huge fan, and I don't know why the target audience is so lukewarm on it.

I was originally assuming I'd be passing on the Whetstone. But after some thought, I'm now planning on making a Whetstone for my primary Cleric build (currently all UR+ tokens). The reason? For ranged, the Whetstone plus a stack of Rare +1 Dwarven (or Gnomish) Throwing Hammers comes out pretty close to last year's Relic Hammer (which I've avoided) and is considerably cheaper.

Honestly the stone is amazingly good, putting aside the versatility it gives you it basically turns the rare mighty sling into the ur mighty sling +1 which by itself is way worth it, not mentioning how good it is with +3 bliss style weapons. In retrospect I'd go so far as it say it's under costed.

My concern with using it with the mighty sling is damage resistance. It's absolute gold for a monk, though, who has only one +2 weapon that is quite expensive.

Currently, I'm trying to acquire materials to make 3 of them for my group.

The whetstone kind has the feel of being designed for the middle-of-the-road crowd who buys enough to outfit in all rares yet isn't yet willing to transition into UR builds, as well as the veterans who want to outfit their teammates. I approve of this. XD

I believe it was Brad who mentioned the value the whetstone has in loaning.

Take a rare weapon you would be ok losing, loan it out in a PUG, then "loan" a whetstone.

Maybe the player even asks about the blue color, and another transmute is born.

Azzy wrote:

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Its in a weird spot, similar to Enchanter's Whetstone stone, where its somewhere between a rare, and effectively half a UR, and I think suffers from the fact there is really only a narrow gap between a Rare and a UR. You make it too cheap you have veterans going "Why would you ever invest in a UR" you make it too expensive you leave players going "Why don't I just buy a UR" or "This small enhancement isn't worth the cost." I do think the charm is a bit over costed, and I do think a lot of the time the recipes come down more on the veteran's side of the perspective. I mean, that makes sense, that's the vast majority of active forum goers. I feel this creates a very narrow target audience window though of those who want to spend some money but not too much money. I find it odd a lot of the time, these middle of the road targeted transmutes end up being developed around what trade goods people have the most sitting around, but that anyone who has that much sitting around is probably not the target audience for actually using these pieces? Sometimes that leaves me to ponder how many transmutes go towards people planning to use them directly and how many are going to token shops. Okay, I don't know where I was going with this, it turned into a stream of conscious, sorry =/

To me, this token seems fairly appropriate. It mostly seems intended not as a new-player token, but more of a "new-ish" player token. As in, it doesn't seem like the intention is for people who have just finished their first couple of runs at their first con playing TD to immediately be able to make this. The target audience seems to be those people who did TD at their last con, liked it enough to play again, recognized how much fun pulling treasure is and were willing to drop maybe $5-$10 to pick up a basic rare TE from a vendor. Assuming they didn't trade off or sell their current monster bits, they probably already have a couple from whatever few treasure draws they might have already made. Thus, after they go through another round of runs at their second con they would likely have enough (or close enough that they only need to drop a few more dollars to finish up what they need). The other few transmuted materials can all be gotten easily enough from the handful of common tokens one would have gathered in that time.

Ultimately, it seems geared with returning players in mind- those who are willing to pay to play an event at a big con, but might be hesitant to drop more than $5-$10 at a time on extra merch for that event. With that as a backdrop, I see the recipe as fairly spot-on.

On a total of 3 adventures, we got 60 treasure pulls in my group at gen con, and we pulled 8 monster bits. It would be enough to build 2 charms bits wise, but it seems way too expensive in bits if you're expecting a 3 pull player to build it themselves with bits from dungeon runs. 1 bit would be manageable, but then you have to deal with the trade goods that a typical 3 pull player isn't going to have either. Now, if it were 1 monster bit, 2 treasure pull chips, a rare, and a completion token, your target audience could make it without a whole lot of worry

The whetstone kind has the feel of being designed for the middle-of-the-road crowd who buys enough to outfit in all rares yet isn't yet willing to transition into UR builds, as well as the veterans who want to outfit their teammates. I approve of this. XD

Agreed here. Its right on the edge of what my group will realistically pay for. No one but me will go for the a +2 or higher weapon, but since they already have some bits, and I've picked up some trade goods, they will probably manage to acquire whatever we're missing to make whetstones. The monk and fighter will definitely do it, and I'll probably make one for my rotating loaner builds.

Endgame wrote: On a total of 3 adventures, we got 60 treasure pulls in my group at gen con, and we pulled 8 monster bits. It would be enough to build 2 charms bits wise, but it seems way too expensive in bits if you're expecting a 3 pull player to build it themselves with bits from dungeon runs. 1 bit would be manageable, but then you have to deal with the trade goods that a typical 3 pull player isn't going to have either. Now, if it were 1 monster bit, 2 treasure pull chips, a rare, and a completion token, your target audience could make it without a whole lot of worry.

Sorry to hear you had some bad luck with your pulls. That being said, people have been cool enough to pool their treasure pull results, so we have some solid data for rates of monster bit drops: docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gUvN9f-GrIhtVOTBv6qQ314iFD4dP50z1tww8DbZbRc/edit#gid=0

So from that it looks like a 22.83% drop rate, which comes out to approximately 18 pulls rounded up that would be needed in a statistically perfect world (they could get more, they could get fewer. I was lucky enough at gencon to get three bits out of my seven pulls). 18 pulls is six runs with no TEs. Five runs if they quickly realize the value of additional treasure pulls and grab a cloak after their first run (like I did). That seems consistent with the idea of them doing TD at one con and when they come back to play again they end up able to make their transmute by the end of their second experience.

As far as the other materials go, two of them use only common tokens and the third is a fairly common trade token available at all rarities. Even assuming they don't have the common tokens to make all those trade goods after their runs, I would be greatly surprised if they were unable to drop that $10 they were saving for extra TD merch to get all three of the required trade goods from other players (for reference, TD tavern sells MH for $2, PS for $2.25 and DS for $3.50).

So, two cons and the willingness to spend $5-$10 extra each time on tokens seems pretty reasonable for the charm.

I think a lot of people discount the pride in making a transmute on their own.

Forcing newbies to make their first transmute by buying their bits from others takes that away. At the risk of being crude, it’s like losing your virginity to a prostitute.

But maybe I’m just idealistic.

The good news for newbies is that the coming bit shortage will mean you can probably trade one bit for two or more Tier 1 goods.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I think a lot of people discount the pride in making a transmute on their own.

Forcing newbies to make their first transmute by buying their bits from others takes that away. At the risk of being crude, it’s like losing your virginity to a prostitute.

But maybe I’m just idealistic.

The good news for newbies is that the coming bit shortage will mean you can probably trade one bit for two or more Tier 1 goods.

Given the trade good prices on the last auction, and the current price of a fleece, I could see a 6 or 7 to one trade being reasonable on most of the c1s. I generally paid about $1 each

Well, that was for the least desired goods, Plank, Silk, and Stone. Those that can be made from what come out of the treasure box the easiest and aren't consumable (except for runestones)

Who knows where the price of monster bits will land? We could be looking at fleece at $100 if some are correct.

Either way, Brad's comment is funny. One could look at it as you have someone with experience guiding you through something awkward, or the other way he implied it.

I admit completely discounted the versatility of the Whetstone. I've pretty much committed to my Stu's Stein for character purposes, but there is a lot of value in that versatility I was missing.