TOPIC: +5 Final Transmute Recipes

Harlax wrote:

Mike Steele wrote: I'd like to be able to do transmuting in Indianapolis like we used to be able to do at WYC or at a gaming store. That was a great opportunity to do some transmuting and spend some time with other TD players. I'd love even more another True Dungeon Celebration, I've got a group of 10 or more ready and willing to do that again.

I hear that something like that is happening in Madison in a few weeks.

I wouldn't mind a trade day in Indy though.

I would imagine something like this might be part of the "Special Event" in a couple years.....

Perhaps another TDC like event for TDs 20th? That was one of the most fun gaming events I've been associated with.

Druegar wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: a lot of gamers I know locally have never heard of it until I talk about it.

Do these same people go to the conventions where TD is played?

For the most part, they don't. Of those who've been to Gen Con or perhaps Origins a few times, they've not gone regularly because there's no particular event that draws them. TD is supposed to be that sort of event. You see it with how many people at GC decide to do TD because it's possible. Obviously, not everyone who hears about TD or participates is going to be motivated to go to cons because of it. OTOH, if they've never even heard of TD at this point, that's a marketing problem. There seems to be an assumption that GC, Origins, or whatever are known, but I went to Origins for the first time in 20+ years this year because of our group's interest in TD and it was very different from my vague recollections from the '90s.

I'm not much of a social media person, but there should be some way to get better penetration these days. Though, to be fair, I go to GC every year and tell people I know about it and that doesn't get folks fired up to go, so plenty of gamers just aren't going to care.

Druegar wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: The disbursement of information for casual players is actually pretty terrible.

This is a perennial issue. We can't make people come to the forums. We can't make them read posters or handouts in the coaching rooms. We know for certain that people don't read descriptions for events--which is why we don't have dedicated Nightmare runs anymore. What marketing vector(s) would you recommend? That's not snark, I'm genuinely interested in hearing folks' ideas.

I don't know that "making" is what is being looked for. When I play a game a lot, I look for primary forums for that game. The casual player of TD is not playing it a lot. The casual player is the once a year type who probably forgets about TD until they scramble around looking for some bags of tokens in the weeks leading up to it.

Again, this is the age of social media. That there are YouTube videos and reddit threads and whatever do circulate information. It's not like when I got lots of my gaming info from Dragon Magazine. Seems like FB, Twitter, blogs, meetups, online stores, or whatever could have more links. Depending upon what the goal is. Seems like selling more tickets at every place besides GC is a goal. Seems like selling more from this site's store is a goal. Other aspects of info are ancillary.

Having no knowledge Pax South existed until mentioned here, I would imagine that a regional push is either going on or could be done. Having never heard of WYC or GHC until they were mentioned here, imagine a similar, "How do we let people who are already likely to go know but don't follow TD that this is happening?" message can be a regional push. For Origins, I would imagine 2019 will be much more heavily attended TDwise just because the first year was not that well known and because of a lot of positive comments about playing at Origins in addition or instead. Still, until hitting capacity, there's likely room to get buzz to Origins attendees.

Now, I knew TD was at GC. I have had a sense of it. Where I didn't have any connection was with the economy that you can see in these forums. As a second part to the disbursement of information, there's making known that, if you want to have a token collection, it's not a matter of wading through token bins in the GC exhibit hall.

Sure, I don't read everything on the walls in the TD area of GC. But, what completely changed my understanding of what tokens existed, what transmutes existed, and generally provided a much greater insight was the hardcopy token guide. I had never seen one before I ordered a bundle from the store. Maybe they are lying around somewhere, but they should be in every coaching room to give people with time to kill something to peruse and to help give context to the universe of tokens.

If I had one long before I placed an order through the store, I very well may have started ordering much earlier. May not be able to drive people to tokendb.com or whatever, but may be able to get more eyes on a token guide or something like a token guide.

The recent thread about where people are located seems like something that would have occurred a long time ago. May not be able to run TD in the hinterlands that are places like the SF Bay Area, but TG could be run out here, KublaCon, for instance. That would create more awareness and "builds" are even more relevant to TG, anyway, plus less emphasis on number of treasure draws.

I used to read rpg.net more often, never read BGG that often, though I'll get pushed there for info, but how present is TD on either site? That I don't know, again, suggests that visibility is limited. And, yes, both have their foci, but TD is one of those things I think any sort of gamer should try at least once to see whether they like it or not.

Druegar wrote:

Ian Lee wrote: Make [transmuting] not challenging.

I'm of the mindset that it's okay to have both challenging recipes for tokenholic veterans and easy recipes for newbies. Why do you feel it's problematic to have both?

This thread was talking about sucking out overly common trade items. I definitely got on a tangent, which was how transmuting can impact that and, then, into how transmuting is accomplished isn't that clear.

I never said to ditch legendary recipes. My point is that legendary recipes, relic recipes, eldritch recipes all impact a relatively small number of players. Now, I may be projecting some and the goal may not to be to greatly expand transmuting to casual players.

If the goal is to get the once a year, three treasure draw player to transmute tokens so that they start chasing, then I would imagine a model of having a "$3 transmute", a "$5 transmute", a "$7 transmute", a "$10 transmute" is a far better model than what currently exists at the *low* end.

As pointed out, four Planks is a lot to expect for people who aren't invested in the economy. Ten Silk is not casual friendly. Even recipes with 4-5 different things aren't friendly in my mind. Maybe Boots of the Marauder was easy for people to make, but I never did any transmutes when I played once a year because a starter pack and a few treasure draws didn't even get me halfway to transmuting back in the day.

*If* the goal was more transmutes and maybe it isn't, I would envision more three item transmutes with transmutes more along the lines of common+uncommon+rare or more transmutes that take just two tokens (rare GP plus whatever to go with common plus 100gp). That doesn't do anything for sucking out trade items or gold except in the most indirect manner possible (fewer c/u/r that get turned into trade items, reducing supply). This would be on top of everything else. And, maybe that's a problem. There's only so much bandwidth to handle the physical manipulation of tokens to where having more low end transmutes on top of everything else doesn't help.

Also, there's the issue of the actual value of transmuting. How many Dire Boars does someone actually get use out of? Bronzeclad Cloaks? Just because a bunch of easy recipes exist doesn't necessarily mean there will be a horde of casual players making stuff. As much as I think it's far less clear what is going on with TD to the casual player than others, I do agree that there are lots of players who just won't care.

Anyway, for obvious reasons, forumites obsess over relic and legendary recipes. Have to be a certain type of player for those to matter at all. Quite a few are never going to make Ogre Magi or Whetstone or whatever just because it does take a commitment level beyond just playing TD once or twice a year. So, the economy can be jiggered to take a lot of a particular item or to take more gold out, but the impact is muted. Also fighting the effect of far more token buys being made. Rather than just achieve high end token buyer equilibrium, expand the demand base could drive more of the economy.

Two thoughts:

First, would it be possible to have a newb transmute use a 1x treasure token rather than specific trade goods or monster bits? Say a rare armor or weapon plus the treasure chip for a slightly better yearly exclusive. That way if they complete one dungeon they could do the transmute that day to be traded at the entry booth. It would be immediate gratification trade wise and take some of the treasure chips out of circulation.

Second, could we print a QR code on the paper event bracelet? I don't know if the image would be sharp or large enough to serve that purpose.

Ian, I believe there was a charm of health that was a common, uncommon recipe a few years back, and they're everywhere, they were made by large token orderers in droves.

The canteen of quaffing is that recipe this year, and is approximately $3. The Figurine of Power: Dog is probably up at $10, then you start getting into real transmutes. The Charm of Treasure Boosting is probably $25 equivalent, only because of monster bits required. it isn't a $3, $5, $7, $10 but it is scale that is roughly correct for True Dungeon and it's cost to entry. The big thing is if it's too easy to create, fools like myself who order lots of tokens might make it if it's good, if it's too hard to create the new folks won't make it, but it's might actually be useful to them.

I think the "Transmute" thing is something that is easier to convince people of participating in if there is something cool that is worth doing, that is easier than just paying someone who's already done it. Para hemplo, if you get a treasure pull when you transmute, one per "order" might help convince a lot of new people to transmute, and at places like GenCon you could use the badge to "sign them into" the event for the weekend and allow one pull from a box in that room specifically. The system as proposed would get abused if it didn't register a person for the weekend, or there wasn't an automatic way to allow it like the GenCon badge scan which is very easy. I get that a system like that would require more work, however if the purpose is to get new individuals to try transmuting it really needs to be simple, quick, and advantaged to get people to take advantage of it. Con life is already hectic and making it anything but easy and fun is going to make it less likely people will want to take their time at a Con to take part especially if they just finished their last run when they're most likely to be able to do the thing.

I love the transmute options this year, and I think the options for newer players including their recipes are well thought out and balanced.

@Ian Lee - I like the idea of a “2-point” transmute.

The problem with Charm of Health was that it was too good.

Maybe the recipe could be something like “any 10 common tokens” and make it no better than a rare. You could even keep it simple, like “any in-print rare weapon.”

That should keep the collectors away (nothing to chase), and limit it to on-site only, one per person per convention.

Now they’re in the door, and they can see all those other blue tokens to which they can aspire.

At least as far as getting rid of excess materials, you could potentially let people turn them in for treasure pulls.

Something like:
2/3x of any of the mats that use common tokens- 1 pull
1x of the two that use uncommon tokens- 2 pulls
1x AG- 4 pulls
1x GF- 6 pulls?

Might serve to balance out materials out there, though if at the cost of a potential mass of people trying to dump stockpiled materials initially.

Azzy wrote: At least as far as getting rid of excess materials, you could potentially let people turn them in for treasure pulls.

Something like:
2/3x of any of the mats that use common tokens- 1 pull
1x of the two that use uncommon tokens- 2 pulls
1x AG- 4 pulls
1x GF- 6 pulls?

Might serve to balance out materials out there, though if at the cost of a potential mass of people trying to dump stockpiled materials initially.

That's an interesting idea

I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

I mean I just realized a few days ago I could double down on my Amulet of Treasure Finding that I have equipped my whole party with. This token is honestly amazing, and allows a sub UR token to add to a UR token for extra treasure pulls. Granted only one token, but that's one more than any sub UR has allowed in the past. I think I called it $25 a charm in a previous post, it's probably higher I'll be honest, $35 maybe but it's not $100, for a PYP. The charm isn't $50 which an ioun stone is at for price per pull, this is a very cool token.

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Its in a weird spot, similar to Enchanter's Whetstone stone, where its somewhere between a rare, and effectively half a UR, and I think suffers from the fact there is really only a narrow gap between a Rare and a UR. You make it too cheap you have veterans going "Why would you ever invest in a UR" you make it too expensive you leave players going "Why don't I just buy a UR" or "This small enhancement isn't worth the cost." I do think the charm is a bit over costed, and I do think a lot of the time the recipes come down more on the veteran's side of the perspective. I mean, that makes sense, that's the vast majority of active forum goers. I feel this creates a very narrow target audience window though of those who want to spend some money but not too much money. I find it odd a lot of the time, these middle of the road targeted transmutes end up being developed around what trade goods people have the most sitting around, but that anyone who has that much sitting around is probably not the target audience for actually using these pieces? Sometimes that leaves me to ponder how many transmutes go towards people planning to use them directly and how many are going to token shops. Okay, I don't know where I was going with this, it turned into a stream of conscious, sorry =/

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Its in a weird spot, similar to Enchanter's Whetstone stone, where its somewhere between a rare, and effectively half a UR, and I think suffers from the fact there is really only a narrow gap between a Rare and a UR. You make it too cheap you have veterans going "Why would you ever invest in a UR" you make it too expensive you leave players going "Why don't I just buy a UR" or "This small enhancement isn't worth the cost." I do think the charm is a bit over costed, and I do think a lot of the time the recipes come down more on the veteran's side of the perspective. I mean, that makes sense, that's the vast majority of active forum goers. I feel this creates a very narrow target audience window though of those who want to spend some money but not too much money. I find it odd a lot of the time, these middle of the road targeted transmutes end up being developed around what trade goods people have the most sitting around, but that anyone who has that much sitting around is probably not the target audience for actually using these pieces? Sometimes that leaves me to ponder how many transmutes go towards people planning to use them directly and how many are going to token shops. Okay, I don't know where I was going with this, it turned into a stream of conscious, sorry =/

To me, this token seems fairly appropriate. It mostly seems intended not as a new-player token, but more of a "new-ish" player token. As in, it doesn't seem like the intention is for people who have just finished their first couple of runs at their first con playing TD to immediately be able to make this. The target audience seems to be those people who did TD at their last con, liked it enough to play again, recognized how much fun pulling treasure is and were willing to drop maybe $5-$10 to pick up a basic rare TE from a vendor. Assuming they didn't trade off or sell their current monster bits, they probably already have a couple from whatever few treasure draws they might have already made. Thus, after they go through another round of runs at their second con they would likely have enough (or close enough that they only need to drop a few more dollars to finish up what they need). The other few transmuted materials can all be gotten easily enough from the handful of common tokens one would have gathered in that time.

Ultimately, it seems geared with returning players in mind- those who are willing to pay to play an event at a big con, but might be hesitant to drop more than $5-$10 at a time on extra merch for that event. With that as a backdrop, I see the recipe as fairly spot-on.

MetaphoricDragon wrote:

Endgame wrote: I've been thinking over the Charm of Treasure Boosting. Is it really an item that should be an exalted token? Its designed to go after the players with 1 treasure booster, and probably a rare one at that. Given the parallel discussion about simple transmutes, would this be the ideal token to have a simple transmute with something like 1 rare, some gold, and a treasure token? Something simple to draw people into transmuting, and something they could have some fun with at the end of an adventure drawing treasure?

Its in a weird spot, similar to Enchanter's Whetstone stone, where its somewhere between a rare, and effectively half a UR, and I think suffers from the fact there is really only a narrow gap between a Rare and a UR. You make it too cheap you have veterans going "Why would you ever invest in a UR" you make it too expensive you leave players going "Why don't I just buy a UR" or "This small enhancement isn't worth the cost." I do think the charm is a bit over costed, and I do think a lot of the time the recipes come down more on the veteran's side of the perspective. I mean, that makes sense, that's the vast majority of active forum goers. I feel this creates a very narrow target audience window though of those who want to spend some money but not too much money. I find it odd a lot of the time, these middle of the road targeted transmutes end up being developed around what trade goods people have the most sitting around, but that anyone who has that much sitting around is probably not the target audience for actually using these pieces? Sometimes that leaves me to ponder how many transmutes go towards people planning to use them directly and how many are going to token shops. Okay, I don't know where I was going with this, it turned into a stream of conscious, sorry =/

I agree that the costs on the exalted tokens seems unfriendly to new players.

I'm a HUGE fan of the whetstone. I don't know why some individuals keep invoking - "at that price, I could just buy an UR."

Others have already stated how poor an investment UR weapons really are. The whetstone gives a very strong bump to rares that makes them almost UR level.

I was just considering buying the barbarian in my group the UR Death Flail. The onyx reverse auction for it has creeping lower and lower. I finally stopped to do the analysis and it turns out that a +1 Scimitar is nearly as powerful as the flail when you factor in the whetstone.

The triple crit is not going to come into play all that often, so I don't put much value in that ability.

Now if I transmute the barbarian a whetstone, he'll have an almost-flail and he retains the good bump if he has to switch to +1 Iron Skulls.

If he has to switch classes and fight with a one-handed weapon, he's still going to get a great bump. The whetstone is just so versatile. I'm a huge fan, and I don't know why the target audience is so lukewarm on it.