TOPIC: Transmute Recipes -- Part Two

kurtreznor wrote:
...also, it is perfect for loaning UR level weapons. As in, they only need to borrow your rare weapon, but still get the +2 bonus, if you dont get it back, at least you didnt lose $100.

This may be the best reason I've heard for me to make one.....

kurtreznor wrote:

Allen John wrote:

MasterED wrote: Every thematic Rare with a +3 damage bonus will always be better than a UR (due to the thematic bonus). This year there is no thematic damage bonus so for 2019 that +1 Iron Bastard Axe at 6.25 damage compared to a +2 War Shillelagh is 7.5 average damage. I will also point out Rare 1 Handed Melee should be around the 5.5 average damage number - there has been some exceptions the last couple of years, hopefully we get back to "average". If we do you are at 6.5 average damage and the UR is at 7.5.

Clearly adding +1 to hit and +1 to damage makes the Iron Bastard Axe nearly the same (at about the cost of 70% of an UR). Other weapons like the +1 Bliss Bastard Club would be in line and put it in the middle.

Just want to add that it's only 70% of the cost of a PYP. Base +2 weapons tend to be cheaper. For the current price of the Whetstone's components, I could just buy a +2 Shillelagh on the secondary market if I wanted.

And i would much rather have the whetstone than a mediocre UR weapon. The only reason i dont need multiple whetstone and dont expect to use them all the time is because my wife has the +3 baton, stacey has nightshades short sword, and i have stus stein. But the versatility of +1/+1 to any rare weapon is amazing.

...also, it is perfect for loaning UR level weapons. As in, they only need to borrow your rare weapon, but still get the +2 bonus, if you dont get it back, at least you didnt lose $100.

I may pick up one or two for loaners myself. At this point I have 4 +2 weapons I have just for loaners for PUGs because that is a lot of what I play. All my loaner weapons are in the $50 range so ya I want them back but it’s not the end of the world. I’m usually loaning my holy sword to the barbarian, go figure.

David Harris wrote:

Picc wrote:

Hawk Fingle wrote:
On a personal level, barring the introduction of a permanent psionic class, my TD quest as a player will likely end with the astral plane event in 2021. TD will be too expensive to play at that point, and that event is the one thing that's keeping me excited about playing for the foreseeable future. It isn't the transmuting that makes me feel like I'm on a quest, it's the adventures and storyline and upcoming story arc events that do that. Transmuting is money and time invested, and any increase to the costs of those investments are hits to my wallet and my continued interest in TD. As I said above, I can't be alone in this.

Your not alone, the cost is getting prohibitive. I had some friends stop participating this year because of it. Personally I cut back on runs and will be skipping GHC dispite wanting to go, but such is life. Some people just have more money/lower travel costs then others.

Mike Steele wrote: I am a bit worried about the amount of monster tokens in treasure boxes decreasing. I know we won't be increasing the number of runs we do, in fact we decreased them this year due to the large increase in price.

It's the first concrete example of the dilution in the treasure mix Brad has been predicting for years. Which in a certain sense even make the TEs less fun as they start to feel mandatory just to tread water.

Gents -- I totally get what you are saying here. But actually I think you can still play True Dungeon and enjoy it at a lower cost than you even use too. Being at 4 conventions now provides more opportunity to play than ever before, not that long ago it was a once a year Event for 4 days. And yes the cost at GENCON is very high, well GENCON as a whole is massively expensive. The other conventions are much less expensive to attend and that includes the price of TD. So consider how you might consume TD differently if you are feeling the pinch of the cost.

First ask yourself...Am I enjoying the experience? If that is now a No...move on. If it's Yes there are more options than ever to get your fix. It's okay to stop if the enjoyment is gone. I played Fantasy Baseball in the same league for 25 years and finally gave it up, two things happened 1) I lost the passion for MLB and then 2) I lost the love of Fantasy baseball. People who knew me well were amazed that I stopped, "well you've always played fantasy baseball as long as I've know you". Times change, people change. Life is too short...enjoy your hobbies or give them up.

I'll actually argue we are in 2 different hobbies or games here in True Dungeon land. One is the interactive, immersive, glory that is playing True Dungeon! It's the best game on the planet! But you can enjoy it with just a hand full of tokens. What was your first experience, most people started by playing on normal with a single pack of tokens or maybe a little more. If you are reading this, that experience was so enjoyable you wanted more and bigger and better. That brings me to the second game.

We can call it Token land. Why do you want better tokens? You can enjoy True Dungeon with only a pack of them, you did once. Something in you wants that bigger and better. The token aspect keeps us connected to the TD experience all year long; appeals to our desire to collect, our desire to complete, our desire to improve; our longing for community; our desire to organize and build; our longing to have something fun to fill our endless numbered days. Why do you want better tokens?

I had a hard year. I had to cut way back, I didn't go to GENCON. But I still stayed in the game, made more modest investments in new tokens, divested some tokens, cut back, looked for more clever solutions for my teams builds. Went to Origins and did 3 glorious runs in a day! Had as much fun as ever. I would love to be geared out in Legendaries, Eldritchs, and Relics. But I've come to accept A Relic or 2, some Ultra Rares, and some rares is what I can afford and I'm going to enjoy the heck out of it!

Folks have fun...life is too short!

Great post David. +1.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:

Allen John wrote:

MasterED wrote: Every thematic Rare with a +3 damage bonus will always be better than a UR (due to the thematic bonus). This year there is no thematic damage bonus so for 2019 that +1 Iron Bastard Axe at 6.25 damage compared to a +2 War Shillelagh is 7.5 average damage. I will also point out Rare 1 Handed Melee should be around the 5.5 average damage number - there has been some exceptions the last couple of years, hopefully we get back to "average". If we do you are at 6.5 average damage and the UR is at 7.5.

Clearly adding +1 to hit and +1 to damage makes the Iron Bastard Axe nearly the same (at about the cost of 70% of an UR). Other weapons like the +1 Bliss Bastard Club would be in line and put it in the middle.

Just want to add that it's only 70% of the cost of a PYP. Base +2 weapons tend to be cheaper. For the current price of the Whetstone's components, I could just buy a +2 Shillelagh on the secondary market if I wanted.

And i would much rather have the whetstone than a mediocre UR weapon. The only reason i dont need multiple whetstone and dont expect to use them all the time is because my wife has the +3 baton, stacey has nightshades short sword, and i have stus stein. But the versatility of +1/+1 to any rare weapon is amazing.

...also, it is perfect for loaning UR level weapons. As in, they only need to borrow your rare weapon, but still get the +2 bonus, if you dont get it back, at least you didnt lose $100.

I may pick up one or two for loaners myself. At this point I have 4 +2 weapons I have just for loaners for PUGs because that is a lot of what I play. All my loaner weapons are in the $50 range so ya I want them back but it’s not the end of the world. I’m usually loaning my holy sword to the barbarian, go figure.

I've done the same. A great, older, 2 handed weapon!

Picc wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote: I consider my parities draws per year to be in the mid range. Most years over this past story arc its been a couple hundred. I don't buy fleeces, most years I even manage to sell a few loose bits here or there if someone is looking for a specific one. All that said I currently have 1 fleece in inventory and 6 bit sets each year this arc (so 72 bits for story-line relics) . Even with my recently diminished group size none of those are spares and I'm probably going to have to pass on making most of the smaller transmutes.

At the end of this years transmutes I expect all of those to be gone, to me at least I'm not having any trouble finding things to do with my monster bits.

I think the bigger issue with the price of fleece is that there really isnt much to do with them at the low to mid range (which I consider to be players spending in the tens to couple hundred dollars per character range).

My party was very disappointed to draw monster bits, even this year, until I learned enough about the transmute process to tell them it isn't bad. You nailed it by saying there isn't much to do with them for players to just run TD to experience it and not to worry about getting more than 3 pulls each run.

On the topic of requiring fleece, and wanting to use more of it this year, could we just get 2 recipes - 1 with extra fleece and lower trade goods, and one the other way around?

Wait, but... but... wow. That’s genius!

How about something like 1 Fleece = 25 Planks?

How about one step simpler still, 1 monster bit = any single trade1 token (so steel,hide,etc but not bismuth,oil,or argonite).

Actually the idea of turning in a bunch of monster parts rather then trade goods to get a transmute that normally above your token buying station as a reward for years of questing actually sounds really on point from an adventuring perspective and would definitely suck bits out of the market while giving lower spend players a way to save up for relics. Which IMO are the best way to get people to make the jump.

I was 100% a red player until I pulled a random UR from the treasure box and started thinking well now that I have this what else would I need.

Hmmm... Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

Hawk Fingle wrote:

Picc wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Endgame wrote:

Picc wrote: I consider my parities draws per year to be in the mid range. Most years over this past story arc its been a couple hundred. I don't buy fleeces, most years I even manage to sell a few loose bits here or there if someone is looking for a specific one. All that said I currently have 1 fleece in inventory and 6 bit sets each year this arc (so 72 bits for story-line relics) . Even with my recently diminished group size none of those are spares and I'm probably going to have to pass on making most of the smaller transmutes.

At the end of this years transmutes I expect all of those to be gone, to me at least I'm not having any trouble finding things to do with my monster bits.

I think the bigger issue with the price of fleece is that there really isnt much to do with them at the low to mid range (which I consider to be players spending in the tens to couple hundred dollars per character range).

My party was very disappointed to draw monster bits, even this year, until I learned enough about the transmute process to tell them it isn't bad. You nailed it by saying there isn't much to do with them for players to just run TD to experience it and not to worry about getting more than 3 pulls each run.

On the topic of requiring fleece, and wanting to use more of it this year, could we just get 2 recipes - 1 with extra fleece and lower trade goods, and one the other way around?

Wait, but... but... wow. That’s genius!

How about something like 1 Fleece = 25 Planks?

How about one step simpler still, 1 monster bit = any single trade1 token (so steel,hide,etc but not bismuth,oil,or argonite).

Actually the idea of turning in a bunch of monster parts rather then trade goods to get a transmute that normally above your token buying station as a reward for years of questing actually sounds really on point from an adventuring perspective and would definitely suck bits out of the market while giving lower spend players a way to save up for relics. Which IMO are the best way to get people to make the jump.

I was 100% a red player until I pulled a random UR from the treasure box and started thinking well now that I have this what else would I need.

Hmmm... Your ideas are intriguing to me and I wish to subscribe to your newsletter.

If anyone wants to trade me monster bits for basic trade goods - hit me up with a PM. That will be an easy one.

Wade Schwendemann wrote:

kurtreznor wrote:
...also, it is perfect for loaning UR level weapons. As in, they only need to borrow your rare weapon, but still get the +2 bonus, if you dont get it back, at least you didnt lose $100.

This may be the best reason I've heard for me to make one.....

I started playing in 2016, and the 4 veterans my group of 6 adventured with got us hooked. They were super helpful and lent us a whole bunch of stuff to make us feel like we actually could participate in helping take down monsters/not die.

Fast forward two years (and lots of dollars later), we are trying to get that extra push to go into hardcore. The whetstone is a great token for that. So if any of you happen to run into a group like mine, having one could mean the difference between running HC vs normal -where at least you get the more valuable participation token. Sure said group might not have the AC/saves/HP to actually run HC, but what's the fun without the possibility of a little death once in a while.

Also, for rangers and monks its almost like having two UR for the price of less than a PYP.

Ultimate kudos to the people that will be transmuting one just for lending out. You guys rock.

I will be making two of the stones. But they will be for lending out. My group all has +2 or better weapons. But we never have more then 6-7 players. So having a few extra in case we get new people will be really nice for them. But hell, I am low on Dwarven steel, don't make it 6! lol. Elven Bismuth I got plenty of.

Matthew Galambus wrote: Also, for rangers and monks its almost like having two UR for the price of less than a PYP

It’s more like 3. The range weapon gets the bonus as well.

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

Matthew Galambus wrote: Also, for rangers and monks its almost like having two UR for the price of less than a PYP

It’s more like 3. The range weapon gets the bonus as well.

And this is where I'm going to disagree. By the way, don't forget that unless you're using viper fangs or cestus, monks are blocked from using bracers, since most our weapons lock out that slot for us. Rangers...eh, they can use a little love if we're being honest, but I digress.

This item is literally equivalent to just +2 to str for melee attacks, but ONLY if you are using a red weapon/s. Granted, its slightly better than that if you're using a ranged weapon, but the current meta is heavily skewed towards melee; the only people I've seen using ranged weapons as their primary, are using it because they have an UR or better, since MOST ranged weapons mean no shield until this year with the archer buckler. I mean...the one class that's actually specialized in ranged weapons typically melees because they can slide twice. Again also, look at UR weapons....most have a special effect tacked onto them, or a damage wheel that jumps up suddenly at the high end instead of following the average range reds do, so I don't think that the equivalent of +2STR, or +2 Dex +1 ranged damage means that "suddenly you almost have an UR or two"

It's useless if you aren't using red, and that's my biggest concern here. Its trade item value is high for a token that is very situational.

I like the earlier suggestion of 1 aragonite, 6 dwarven steel. Someone showed the math earlier, it's actually harder to get bismuth than it is aragonite, since aragonite can be made of weapons AND armor, not just weapons. There's a lot more bismuth being used in other recipes now, so that's going to be a valuable commodity soon.

Matthew Hayward wrote: Let’s put it another way: if you buy. $250 pack every year you’d probably be able to get a relic after 3-4 years, with some trading.

I did check that math (by accident) and it came out to exactly 3 years assuming you were doing 3 runs per year (to get the bits without trading).

Ed

Picc wrote: Actually the idea of turning in a bunch of monster parts rather then trade goods to get a transmute that normally above your token buying station as a reward for years of questing actually sounds really on point from an adventuring perspective and would definitely suck bits out of the market while giving lower spend players a way to save up for relics. Which IMO are the best way to get people to make the jump.

We already have something similar - turning in a bunch of monster bits for something above your station, called the story arc.

Note - I am not against a conversion chart for bits to TG1 (Trade Good I). I do know many of the traders already do that, just have to ask.

Ed