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TOPIC: Transmute Recipes -- Part Two

Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #85

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Matt wrote: Ed, aren't 5 star relics? I do consider those to be out of the reach or a gateway for newish players. I look at the 3/4 star stuff as being or should be more approachable. I look at the Blessed tempest gloves as a recent good example, it took a set rare, 1 trade good and some bits to make. It was a simple recipe and felt like a real upgrade.


Yes T5 is the same thing as a Relic.

The Blessed Tempest Gloves weren't cheap (depending on your definition). A Rare, 2 Monster Bits, and an Oil of Enchantment. I agree it is cheaper than the 2019 T4's but you only got a +1 to Ranged damage for Gloves.

For 2019 T4 you are getting +1 to hit and +1 to damage on any Rare weapon or +1 treasure. I feel both of those are more powerful then +1 damage. Just my opinion though.

I think they are aimed at the middle between Rare and UR but not just slightly better than Rare.

Ed


I’m personally for keeping the whetstone high cost.

I’ll lay out a example to explain why I keep saying if it’s too cheep it obsoletes UR weapons

+1 Iron Bastard Axe Last year versus +2 War Shillelagh

In the fae last year the +1 iron bastard ax
Was a minimum damage of 5 and a max of 14 with a +1 to hit.
The +2 War Shillelagh was minimum 3 max 15
With the whetstone the +1 Iron Bastard Axe In the same type of Scenario would be clearly better than the +2 war shillelagh

In the fae last year using whetstone the +1 iron bastard ax
Was a minimum damage of 6 and a max of 15 with a +2 to hit.
The +2 War Shillelagh was minimum 3 max 15

This same situation would apply to the Bliss weapons or what ever is the +3 damage to rare of the year. Yes you would change rares every year but at the price of rares who cares.


Every thematic Rare with a +3 damage bonus will always be better than a UR (due to the thematic bonus). This year there is no thematic damage bonus so for 2019 that +1 Iron Bastard Axe at 6.25 damage compared to a +2 War Shillelagh is 7.5 average damage. I will also point out Rare 1 Handed Melee should be around the 5.5 average damage number - there has been some exceptions the last couple of years, hopefully we get back to "average". If we do you are at 6.5 average damage and the UR is at 7.5.

Clearly adding +1 to hit and +1 to damage makes the Iron Bastard Axe nearly the same (at about the cost of 70% of an UR). Other weapons like the +1 Bliss Bastard Club would be in line and put it in the middle.

I think the Enchanter's Whetstone is really close. I would probably only tweak the recipe
From (1) Aragonite, (1) Dwarven Steel, and (1) Elven Bismuth
To: (1) Aragonite, and (6) Dwarven Steel

Primarily because new players opening new packs will get a lot more of Uncommon weapons then Rare weapons (takes too many packs to get 25 Rare weapons).

Ed
Useful Links:
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Last edit: by MasterED.
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Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #86

MasterED wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote:

MasterED wrote:

Matt wrote: Ed, aren't 5 star relics? I do consider those to be out of the reach or a gateway for newish players. I look at the 3/4 star stuff as being or should be more approachable. I look at the Blessed tempest gloves as a recent good example, it took a set rare, 1 trade good and some bits to make. It was a simple recipe and felt like a real upgrade.


Yes T5 is the same thing as a Relic.

The Blessed Tempest Gloves weren't cheap (depending on your definition). A Rare, 2 Monster Bits, and an Oil of Enchantment. I agree it is cheaper than the 2019 T4's but you only got a +1 to Ranged damage for Gloves.

For 2019 T4 you are getting +1 to hit and +1 to damage on any Rare weapon or +1 treasure. I feel both of those are more powerful then +1 damage. Just my opinion though.

I think they are aimed at the middle between Rare and UR but not just slightly better than Rare.

Ed


I’m personally for keeping the whetstone high cost.

I’ll lay out a example to explain why I keep saying if it’s too cheep it obsoletes UR weapons

+1 Iron Bastard Axe Last year versus +2 War Shillelagh

In the fae last year the +1 iron bastard ax
Was a minimum damage of 5 and a max of 14 with a +1 to hit.
The +2 War Shillelagh was minimum 3 max 15
With the whetstone the +1 Iron Bastard Axe In the same type of Scenario would be clearly better than the +2 war shillelagh

In the fae last year using whetstone the +1 iron bastard ax
Was a minimum damage of 6 and a max of 15 with a +2 to hit.
The +2 War Shillelagh was minimum 3 max 15

This same situation would apply to the Bliss weapons or what ever is the +3 damage to rare of the year. Yes you would change rares every year but at the price of rares who cares.


Every thematic Rare with a +3 damage bonus will always be better than a UR (due to the thematic bonus). This year there is no thematic damage bonus so for 2019 that +1 Iron Bastard Axe at 6.25 damage compared to a +2 War Shillelagh is 7.5 average damage. I will also point out Rare 1 Handed Melee should be around the 5.5 average damage number - there has been some exceptions the last couple of years, hopefully we get back to "average". If we do you are at 6.5 average damage and the UR is at 7.5.

Clearly adding +1 to hit and +1 to damage makes the Iron Bastard Axe nearly the same (at about the cost of 70% of an UR). Other weapons like the +1 Bliss Bastard Club would be in line and put it in the middle.

I think the Enchanter's Whetstone is really close. I would probably only tweak the recipe
From (1) Aragonite, (1) Dwarven Steel, and (1) Elven Bismuth
To: (2) Elven Bismuth, (2) Dwarven Steel

Primarily because new players opening new packs will get a lot more of Uncommon weapons then Rare weapons (takes too many packs to get 25 Rare weapons).

Ed


Historically, a lot of URs have a bonus beyond the raw numbers. Drow Blood Maces (extra life tap), this year’s Crossbow (stun), Batons and Staves of Focus (extra focus).

So, even if the Whetstone gives a rare the exact same hit and damage wheel, the UR will still often be much better.

Paradoxically, I think the Aragonite is actually more flexible because you only need a combo of 25 weapons and/or armor, while for an Oil and a Bismuth you need exactly 25 of each.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
Last edit: by Brad Mortensen.
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Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #87

Adam Pillari wrote: Of the recipes I've looked at, the ONLY one that looks a little off is the whetstone. Having both an aragonite and an elven bismuth as requirements is pretty steep...yes, the token is good, but just saying it's "As good as an UR weapon" isn't true.

Rare weapons don't have the same upgraded damage wheels that URs do, nor do they have any special effects that most URs do, so the +1/+1 upgrade isn't equivalent.. I mean...+1 to hit, +1 to damage is in practice equivalent to just +2str for a melee character, or +2 dex +1 damage for a ranged character. Yes, it's slotless, but unlike other slotless tokens, it becomes null the moment you're using a non-red weapon. Personally, I'd make it 1 aragonite OR 1 elven bismuth, while upping the dwarven steel requirement.

For reference to my involvement... I'm in the semi-casual crowd that gets a 1k order every year, volunteers full time, and does 1-2 runs at gencon, 2-3 runs at GHC. I actually have an easier time getting aragonite than I do bismuth, for some reason. Maybe that's just how my pulls have gone.


The slotless thing, and the rare weapons only thing are my main things. If it were a Ioun Stone or took up your off hand then I would be in favor of dropped the cost.

It is a hard call sometimes what is the right answer. But once the Genie is out of the bottle you can’t put it back in. I have laid out the math on why I think the way I do. I think you make fair points.

To be fair this is the only token I am wanting to keep the resource requirements high on. I wanted to see all Golden Fleece removed from kilt and certainly don’t want Golden Fleece on anything below relic.
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Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #88

MasterED wrote: Every thematic Rare with a +3 damage bonus will always be better than a UR (due to the thematic bonus). This year there is no thematic damage bonus so for 2019 that +1 Iron Bastard Axe at 6.25 damage compared to a +2 War Shillelagh is 7.5 average damage. I will also point out Rare 1 Handed Melee should be around the 5.5 average damage number - there has been some exceptions the last couple of years, hopefully we get back to "average". If we do you are at 6.5 average damage and the UR is at 7.5.

Clearly adding +1 to hit and +1 to damage makes the Iron Bastard Axe nearly the same (at about the cost of 70% of an UR). Other weapons like the +1 Bliss Bastard Club would be in line and put it in the middle.


Just want to add that it's only 70% of the cost of a PYP. Base +2 weapons tend to be cheaper. For the current price of the Whetstone's components, I could just buy a +2 Shillelagh on the secondary market if I wanted.
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Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #89

Allen John wrote:

MasterED wrote: Every thematic Rare with a +3 damage bonus will always be better than a UR (due to the thematic bonus). This year there is no thematic damage bonus so for 2019 that +1 Iron Bastard Axe at 6.25 damage compared to a +2 War Shillelagh is 7.5 average damage. I will also point out Rare 1 Handed Melee should be around the 5.5 average damage number - there has been some exceptions the last couple of years, hopefully we get back to "average". If we do you are at 6.5 average damage and the UR is at 7.5.

Clearly adding +1 to hit and +1 to damage makes the Iron Bastard Axe nearly the same (at about the cost of 70% of an UR). Other weapons like the +1 Bliss Bastard Club would be in line and put it in the middle.


Just want to add that it's only 70% of the cost of a PYP. Base +2 weapons tend to be cheaper. For the current price of the Whetstone's components, I could just buy a +2 Shillelagh on the secondary market if I wanted.


I admit, its crossed my mind, should I just spend a bit extra and get a PYP of the +2 treasure ioun stone instead of working to pick up the pieces for the charm. Though that is because i'm starting from scratch on this years monster bits =/
~Meta: Don't worry, it is perfectly "safe" to follow the drunken dwarf into the dungeon!
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Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #90

Allen John wrote: Just want to add that it's only 70% of the cost of a PYP. Base +2 weapons tend to be cheaper. For the current price of the Whetstone's components, I could just buy a +2 Shillelagh on the secondary market if I wanted.

And I think you should Allen if you are at that level of a player. This T4 gives players something to do with all their UC weapons and C weapons that they won't have a use for.

Ed
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
Amorgen's Excel Char Gen Tool
Token DataBase
Talking TD Podcast

TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!
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Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #91

Brad Mortensen wrote: Paradoxically, I think the Aragonite is actually more flexible because you only need a combo of 25 weapons and/or armor, while for an Oil and a Bismuth you need exactly 25 of each.

Interesting Brad, I think you are spot on. And it is a lot of ten packs. See if I got this right...

There are 10 Armor/Weapons in the 40 count set so 1/4 chance of getting one. If you open 100 ten-packs you get, on average 25.

There are only 4 Uncommon Weapons in the set so 1/10 chance of getting one. You get two UC in each back so 2/10 or 1/5 chance to get one per pack. You open 100 ten packs you get on average 20. So you are going to need to open 250 packs which is way too high.

There are 9 common Weapons in the set so 9/40 chance of getting one but you get 7 (hopefully 6 - different story) so 63/40 per pack. If yo open 100 ten packs you will get on average 157 Dwarven Steel units or about 6.

I amend my suggestion and would make it 1 Aragonite and 6 Dwarven Steel.

Ed
Useful Links:
TD Character Creator
Amorgen's Excel Char Gen Tool
Token DataBase
Talking TD Podcast

TD Accomplishments:
Member of the first team to survive Epic True Grind
1st Solo NM as Poly Druid
Proud member of Gas Station Sushi
Don't Nerf Our Tokens!
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Transmute Recipes -- Part Two 2 years 3 weeks ago #92

I'm not in the market for the Whetstone because I already have a +2 weapon. I traded, of all things (given the topic du jour), every monster bit I owned for one at GHC 2016. (And admittedly, I got a bit of a deal on it from a regular here since it was my first UR. I promise I'm never trading it away!)

I took stock of my tokens last night to see whether I was interested in trying for any of these tokens, and it turns out that, after three years of free 10-packs and treasure pulls, I have exactly half of one Aragonite in tokens I don't need. I'll probably get the Charm, but that depends on how many bits I pull at GHC this year.
Last edit: by Allen John.
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Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #93

MasterED wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: Paradoxically, I think the Aragonite is actually more flexible because you only need a combo of 25 weapons and/or armor, while for an Oil and a Bismuth you need exactly 25 of each.

Interesting Brad, I think you are spot on. And it is a lot of ten packs. See if I got this right...

There are 10 Armor/Weapons in the 40 count set so 1/4 chance of getting one. If you open 100 ten-packs you get, on average 25.

There are only 4 Uncommon Weapons in the set so 1/10 chance of getting one. You get two UC in each back so 2/10 or 1/5 chance to get one per pack. You open 100 ten packs you get on average 20. So you are going to need to open 250 packs which is way too high.

There are 9 common Weapons in the set so 9/40 chance of getting one but you get 7 (hopefully 6 - different story) so 63/40 per pack. If yo open 100 ten packs you will get on average 157 Dwarven Steel units or about 6.

I amend my suggestion and would make it 1 Aragonite and 6 Dwarven Steel.

Ed


Another point - the loot is usually equal rares and uncommon. If you’re equally likely to get a red weapon as a green one, treasure gets you to Aragonite twice as fast as to Bis + Oil.
barkley.neo.rr.com -->see my trade thread HERE , my eBay store HERE or my web store HERE
"Ceci n'est pas une pipe" - Magritte
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Transmute Recipes -- Part Two 2 years 3 weeks ago #94

I looked a little bit at previous year comps to get a sense of how much inflation there is.

Lute, for instance, is 8x more common trade items, a Fleece, and 1000gp more than Starhide Robe. The part of that that bothers me the most is the 8x trade items, as my perspective (which doesn't go back that far on the topic) is that the problem with Fleece is that they are so ultrararily used in recipes.

Certainly seen where bits could be pumped into other things, but those recipes end and Fleece becomes the only thing to do other than for collectors of esoteric bits. Ring of Heroism did a great job propping up Fleece, then the recipe ended.

More gold is inflation that just seems the nature of the situation, even if 25% inflation in two years is not trivial.

Of all of the recipes, besides finding the Widseth #2 a disappointment, the one that still bothers me the most is ... Belt of Ogre Mage Power. I just really dislike lower end transmutes being so intensive for one thing that might go into something else in a two-year span of recipes.

I'd rather see 5x MS and 2k GP. (Unless this year corrects, gold has become significantly less valuable than a couple years ago, IME.) Or, 5x MS and 5x DS. Or, 5x MS and 5x MH (this year doesn't seem to do a whole lot with MH, which seems intentional but kind of weird as I don't think MH is scarce).

I didn't try to comp legendary recipes.

Even the BoOMP doesn't bother me a ton. High level inflation at the higher end for reasons and lower end recipes that seem okay.

On a related note, I do think the communication of future transmute plans is still lacking. Where does the player who doesn't look for stray comments keep track of which years are relevant to a story transmute or which year completions go into a RoH style transmute or the like?

I certainly didn't feel like Bead transmute was communicated clearly up until this year, so years of players just ditching old monster bits for a known use.

Do any completion tokens matter for future recipes at this time? I don't know.

Can say that there will be a story transmute after the next one ends every time, except how does someone who just started paying attention know that? What if the cycle gets broken and one year's bits become nothing but Fleece fodder when they could have been used for other things - how does someone know?
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Transmute Recipes -- Part Two 2 years 3 weeks ago #95

Brad Mortensen wrote:

Kenban wrote: I have tons of monster bits...




Seriously, a lot of players will be happy to give you gold for your bits. TD tries to keep out of exchange rates or token values, and just focuses on supply and demand.


Would love to post GHC.
I traded a lot of Bits with Master Ed at his cart for GP value then used it towards Tokens I wanted from him, it was awesome! I did it at the last two cons, I thought he offered a very fair trade in value and I walked away with Charm Bracelets and Kvothes Bloodless. I'm extremely pleased with both experiences, thank you ED.

I'll be at GHC and would be happy to trade for GP after my hauls. Hit me up and we can arrange a meet up. I'm currently sitting on 3 Fleeces and only need one more to make what I want in 2019. I also have enough socked away for 2 Beads already sans the 2019 bits. I really need GP, I'm good on after the next 10 Bits. I have enough runs planned for GHC I'll easily exceed my quota.

I would love to see more talk on Completion Tokens, they really need another RoH type of trade in for something special....too many.
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Last edit: by JACKOFTRADZE.
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Endgame 2019 Transmuted Recipes 2 years 3 weeks ago #96

Allen John wrote:

MasterED wrote: Every thematic Rare with a +3 damage bonus will always be better than a UR (due to the thematic bonus). This year there is no thematic damage bonus so for 2019 that +1 Iron Bastard Axe at 6.25 damage compared to a +2 War Shillelagh is 7.5 average damage. I will also point out Rare 1 Handed Melee should be around the 5.5 average damage number - there has been some exceptions the last couple of years, hopefully we get back to "average". If we do you are at 6.5 average damage and the UR is at 7.5.

Clearly adding +1 to hit and +1 to damage makes the Iron Bastard Axe nearly the same (at about the cost of 70% of an UR). Other weapons like the +1 Bliss Bastard Club would be in line and put it in the middle.


Just want to add that it's only 70% of the cost of a PYP. Base +2 weapons tend to be cheaper. For the current price of the Whetstone's components, I could just buy a +2 Shillelagh on the secondary market if I wanted.


And i would much rather have the whetstone than a mediocre UR weapon. The only reason i dont need multiple whetstone and dont expect to use them all the time is because my wife has the +3 baton, stacey has nightshades short sword, and i have stus stein. But the versatility of +1/+1 to any rare weapon is amazing.

...also, it is perfect for loaning UR level weapons. As in, they only need to borrow your rare weapon, but still get the +2 bonus, if you dont get it back, at least you didnt lose $100.
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