TOPIC: Transmute Recipes -- Part Two

MasterED wrote:

Picc wrote: Actually the idea of turning in a bunch of monster parts rather then trade goods to get a transmute that normally above your token buying station as a reward for years of questing actually sounds really on point from an adventuring perspective and would definitely suck bits out of the market while giving lower spend players a way to save up for relics. Which IMO are the best way to get people to make the jump.

We already have something similar - turning in a bunch of monster bits for something above your station, called the story arc.

Note - I am not against a conversion chart for bits to TG1 (Trade Good I). I do know many of the traders already do that, just have to ask.

Ed

Sure, no need to have True Dungeon set up a conversion from monster tokens to trade item tokens, since multiple True Dungeon traders/collectors will already do that.

I think the Whetstone and the TB are designed for newer players. They’re meant to be useless if you have the “good stuff.”

I agree that Whetstone + rare weapon is weaker than a UR, for the reasons you state. It will turn your Baton of Focus (with +1 to spells) into a +1 Baton of Focus, but the +1 to spells doesn’t change. And the UR BoF is +2, so they’re not even close. You can find other examples where a rare does turn into a 2007 UR with a mere +1/+1, but I challenge anyone to turn any rare into one of this year’s three.

It’s flexible though. One will let you switch classes and you can use it with your new weapon. That’s cheaper than having a dozen backup UR weapons. But it’s not as good.

I also agree with you about the cost. Looking at the progression of price from common through legendary, and since the Whetstone feels to me like it turns a rare into at best a half-UR, and assuming this is going to be aimed at newbie-ish players, it just feels twice as expensive as it should. But there’s the flexibility aspect too, so that’s worth something.

But recipes always seem pricier than I expect, which is why this is the first year I recall ever commenting on recipes.

I’ve been focusing on other things. Does a Ranger armed with two swords and a bow, all rare, need one Whetstone or two? I guess the party card has just one number for hit/damage that applies to both hands.

If only one, that’s pretty powerful, and suddenly the recipe doesn’t seem quite so expensive.

If an individual character would ever need more than one whetstone, then the recipe seems far too expensive.

If each character only needs one max, I think it is about the right cost.

Brad Mortensen wrote: I think the Whetstone and the TB are designed for newer players. They’re meant to be useless if you have the “good stuff.”

I agree that Whetstone + rare weapon is weaker than a UR, for the reasons you state. It will turn your Baton of Focus (with +1 to spells) into a +1 Baton of Focus, but the +1 to spells doesn’t change. And the UR BoF is +2, so they’re not even close. You can find other examples where a rare does turn into a 2007 UR with a mere +1/+1, but I challenge anyone to turn any rare into one of this year’s three.

It’s flexible though. One will let you switch classes and you can use it with your new weapon. That’s cheaper than having a dozen backup UR weapons. But it’s not as good.

I also agree with you about the cost. Looking at the progression of price from common through legendary, and since the Whetstone feels to me like it turns a rare into at best a half-UR, and assuming this is going to be aimed at newbie-ish players, it just feels twice as expensive as it should. But there’s the flexibility aspect too, so that’s worth something.

But recipes always seem pricier than I expect, which is why this is the first year I recall ever commenting on recipes.

I’ve been focusing on other things. Does a Ranger armed with two swords and a bow, all rare, need one Whetstone or two? I guess the party card has just one number for hit/damage that applies to both hands.

If only one, that’s pretty powerful, and suddenly the recipe doesn’t seem quite so expensive.

They only need one...but again. It's the equivalent of +2 str for melee, or +2 dex +1 damage for ranged, since you can't use ranged and melee at the same time. And that's the only case where the whetstone is really that good. For monks, it just makes up for the missing bracer slot. For everyone else, they're typically either casters, or a one-or-the-other situation with melee vs. ranged. And again, I reiterate...it's only that good if you're using red weapons. Doesn't do anything for common, uncommon, UR or higher.

In regards to rangers and monks also....I don't think we should evaluate the whetstone as "Oh it's worth almost 2-3 URs" based on the only two classes that can dual wield.

You are right in that it is versatile...but only if you're using reds. That really is my only hangup, and why I think that the 1 aragonite 6 dwarven, is better than 1 aragonite 1 bismuth 1 dwarven. I don't think there need to be two semi-rare ingredients on a transmute that, while potentially useful to a lot of classes, is still rendered worthless the moment you use the wrong type of item.

Adam Pillari wrote: Doesn't do anything for common, uncommon, UR or higher.

Agreed. I thought that no commons or uncommons clause was unnecessary, but in practice I think most players making this will have rare weapons.

If it worked on a UR it would turn it into a half-relic. That’s a much better boost, so it would require a more expensive recipe, and that price it out of reach for the red players it’s meant for.

In regards to rangers and monks also....I don't think we should evaluate the whetstone as "Oh it's worth almost 2-3 URs" based on the only two classes that can dual wield.

It’s three weapons for monk/Ranger, and two for everyone else. Most well-prepared melee classes carry a ranged weapon in case of thorny hedges and flying dragons.

You are right in that it is versatile...but only if you're using reds. That really is my only hangup, and why I think that the 1 aragonite 6 dwarven, is better than 1 aragonite 1 bismuth 1 dwarven.

If by “better” you mean easier, especially if you factor in treasures drawn, then 100 percent.

Adam Pillari wrote: I like the earlier suggestion of 1 aragonite, 6 dwarven steel. Someone showed the math earlier, it's actually harder to get bismuth than it is aragonite, since aragonite can be made of weapons AND armor, not just weapons. There's a lot more bismuth being used in other recipes now, so that's going to be a valuable commodity soon.

It is easier (with treasure pulls) to get an Aragonite than _a_ Elven Bismuth or _a_ Oil of Enchantment (as opposed to 1/2 of EB and 1/2 of OE).

From token 10 packs however, you get 1 AG for every 1 EB&OE you get (roughly).

The latter is why AG is worth more than EB and OE.

I'll happily trade you EB or OE for AG any time you want.

I like the overall cost on the whetstone. I’m completely cool with changing the way the cost is structured to make it more accessible.

Currently it’s
1× Aragonite
1× Dwarven Steel
1× Elven Bismuth
500 GP equivalent
Monster bit

I think that’s about $50 to $65 in ingredients. Maybe something like this.

2× Alchemist’s Ink
1× Alchemist’s Parchment
3× Darkwood Plank
1× Dwarven Steel
1× Enchanter’s Munition
1× Minotaur Hide
3× Mystic Silk
2× Philosopher’s Stone
1000 GP
2 monster bits

We could disagree on weather this would be too high or not, but it’s achievable in a 250 pack with the exception of the monster bits.

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I like the overall cost on the whetstone. I’m completely cool with changing the way the cost is structured to make it more accessible.

Currently it’s
1× Aragonite
1× Dwarven Steel
1× Elven Bismuth
500 GP equivalent
Monster bit

I think that’s about $50 to $65 in ingredients. Maybe something like this.

2× Alchemist’s Ink
1× Alchemist’s Parchment
3× Darkwood Plank
1× Dwarven Steel
1× Enchanter’s Munition
1× Minotaur Hide
3× Mystic Silk
2× Philosopher’s Stone
1000 GP
2 monster bits

We could disagree on weather this would be too high or not, but it’s achievable in a 250 pack with the exception of the monster bits.

Heck, I'd take that as well. My only real objection is BOTH the aragonite and the bismuth, two semi-rare materials, for a token that while very good, is still situational.

Adam Pillari wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I think the Whetstone and the TB are designed for newer players. They’re meant to be useless if you have the “good stuff.”

I agree that Whetstone + rare weapon is weaker than a UR, for the reasons you state. It will turn your Baton of Focus (with +1 to spells) into a +1 Baton of Focus, but the +1 to spells doesn’t change. And the UR BoF is +2, so they’re not even close. You can find other examples where a rare does turn into a 2007 UR with a mere +1/+1, but I challenge anyone to turn any rare into one of this year’s three.

It’s flexible though. One will let you switch classes and you can use it with your new weapon. That’s cheaper than having a dozen backup UR weapons. But it’s not as good.

I also agree with you about the cost. Looking at the progression of price from common through legendary, and since the Whetstone feels to me like it turns a rare into at best a half-UR, and assuming this is going to be aimed at newbie-ish players, it just feels twice as expensive as it should. But there’s the flexibility aspect too, so that’s worth something.

But recipes always seem pricier than I expect, which is why this is the first year I recall ever commenting on recipes.

I’ve been focusing on other things. Does a Ranger armed with two swords and a bow, all rare, need one Whetstone or two? I guess the party card has just one number for hit/damage that applies to both hands.

If only one, that’s pretty powerful, and suddenly the recipe doesn’t seem quite so expensive.

They only need one...but again. It's the equivalent of +2 str for melee, or +2 dex +1 damage for ranged, since you can't use ranged and melee at the same time. And that's the only case where the whetstone is really that good. For monks, it just makes up for the missing bracer slot. For everyone else, they're typically either casters, or a one-or-the-other situation with melee vs. ranged. And again, I reiterate...it's only that good if you're using red weapons. Doesn't do anything for common, uncommon, UR or higher.

In regards to rangers and monks also....I don't think we should evaluate the whetstone as "Oh it's worth almost 2-3 URs" based on the only two classes that can dual wield.

You are right in that it is versatile...but only if you're using reds. That really is my only hangup, and why I think that the 1 aragonite 6 dwarven, is better than 1 aragonite 1 bismuth 1 dwarven. I don't think there need to be two semi-rare ingredients on a transmute that, while potentially useful to a lot of classes, is still rendered worthless the moment you use the wrong type of item.

When we're talking about the costs for this, you absolutely need to consider the people that are going to benefit the most. Because that's when things become overpowered, when the people that benefit the most have too easy a time to get it. You don't need to consider the people using common and uncommon weapons when determining the cost, because they have no reason to make this in the first place.

Adam Pillari wrote:

Wayne Rhodes wrote: I like the overall cost on the whetstone. I’m completely cool with changing the way the cost is structured to make it more accessible.

Currently it’s
1× Aragonite
1× Dwarven Steel
1× Elven Bismuth
500 GP equivalent
Monster bit

I think that’s about $50 to $65 in ingredients. Maybe something like this.

2× Alchemist’s Ink
1× Alchemist’s Parchment
3× Darkwood Plank
1× Dwarven Steel
1× Enchanter’s Munition
1× Minotaur Hide
3× Mystic Silk
2× Philosopher’s Stone
1000 GP
2 monster bits

We could disagree on weather this would be too high or not, but it’s achievable in a 250 pack with the exception of the monster bits.

Heck, I'd take that as well. My only real objection is BOTH the aragonite and the bismuth, two semi-rare materials, for a token that while very good, is still situational.

You keep saying "situational". Usually when we say that, it means things that are out of the control of the player (underground or not, facing a certain type of enemy, etc). Whether the player is using a Rare weapon is fully in the control of the player.

Fiddy wrote:

Adam Pillari wrote:

Brad Mortensen wrote: I think the Whetstone and the TB are designed for newer players. They’re meant to be useless if you have the “good stuff.”

I agree that Whetstone + rare weapon is weaker than a UR, for the reasons you state. It will turn your Baton of Focus (with +1 to spells) into a +1 Baton of Focus, but the +1 to spells doesn’t change. And the UR BoF is +2, so they’re not even close. You can find other examples where a rare does turn into a 2007 UR with a mere +1/+1, but I challenge anyone to turn any rare into one of this year’s three.

It’s flexible though. One will let you switch classes and you can use it with your new weapon. That’s cheaper than having a dozen backup UR weapons. But it’s not as good.

I also agree with you about the cost. Looking at the progression of price from common through legendary, and since the Whetstone feels to me like it turns a rare into at best a half-UR, and assuming this is going to be aimed at newbie-ish players, it just feels twice as expensive as it should. But there’s the flexibility aspect too, so that’s worth something.

But recipes always seem pricier than I expect, which is why this is the first year I recall ever commenting on recipes.

I’ve been focusing on other things. Does a Ranger armed with two swords and a bow, all rare, need one Whetstone or two? I guess the party card has just one number for hit/damage that applies to both hands.

If only one, that’s pretty powerful, and suddenly the recipe doesn’t seem quite so expensive.

They only need one...but again. It's the equivalent of +2 str for melee, or +2 dex +1 damage for ranged, since you can't use ranged and melee at the same time. And that's the only case where the whetstone is really that good. For monks, it just makes up for the missing bracer slot. For everyone else, they're typically either casters, or a one-or-the-other situation with melee vs. ranged. And again, I reiterate...it's only that good if you're using red weapons. Doesn't do anything for common, uncommon, UR or higher.

In regards to rangers and monks also....I don't think we should evaluate the whetstone as "Oh it's worth almost 2-3 URs" based on the only two classes that can dual wield.

You are right in that it is versatile...but only if you're using reds. That really is my only hangup, and why I think that the 1 aragonite 6 dwarven, is better than 1 aragonite 1 bismuth 1 dwarven. I don't think there need to be two semi-rare ingredients on a transmute that, while potentially useful to a lot of classes, is still rendered worthless the moment you use the wrong type of item.

When we're talking about the costs for this, you absolutely need to consider the people that are going to benefit the most. Because that's when things become overpowered, when the people that benefit the most have too easy a time to get it. You don't need to consider the people using common and uncommon weapons when determining the cost, because they have no reason to make this in the first place.

I personally feel the whetstone is directed at the $250 lot crowd. And while I think it’s a very good token and should have a transmute cost that reflects that, I also understand the complaints about the specific trade goods.

As someone who outfits a rare level party, the whetstone was exciting to me until the transmute recipe hit. I can make a grand total of one of these. Womp womp. If I can buy them for $50 each, why wouldn’t I just buy $50 UR weapons? One less token to lug around.